Several people shot dead in Plymouth 12 August 2021

[krtek a houby]

... yes, I was thinking they are a wide mix of ages and genders...random shooting maybe ?.

Incel culture dislikes men in relationships and men who have children. Could be random, sure. Could also very much have been an ideal focus for his rage.

He could also have suffered from MHI. But many people do and they don't take to the streets and murder because they're angry.

Still reckon he's a terrorist.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

That the police have ruled out terrorism and links to the far-right is absurd.

 

[Raheem]

That the police have ruled out terrorism and links to the far-right is absurd.

Think they ruled it out early without really thinking. They're coppers, not geniuses.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I don't claim expertise, but I reckon a shotgun is not going to be quickest or easiest.

You don't shoot every crow. Crows are quite intelligent, so you only have to shoot a few and hang them up for the others to see, and they think 'fuck that, I'm not going down there, look what happened to Steve! "

 

[fishfinger]

...'fuck that, I'm not going down there, look what happened to Steve!

I think you mean Russell - Steve is a seagull.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

pretty sure that the MH budget is the first thing that gets cut when financial restrictions come onto the NHS, and they have been inadequatly funded even before that all over the country.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

I was just reading about this on Twitter. What does it mean when something is said to not be terrorism related?

“it” is the police and when they stress something is not terrorist related they’re often covering up right wing terrorism.

 

[scifisam]

Incel culture dislikes men in relationships and men who have children. Could be random, sure. Could also very much have been an ideal focus for his rage.

He could also have suffered from MHI. But many people do and they don't take to the streets and murder because they're angry.

Still reckon he's a terrorist.

It does sorta look like he just picked off the first people he saw, after killing his Mum. The others were men and women in their 50s and 60s, just the people who happened to be there before he ran out of ammo or anger. He'd already shot one person, couldn't get away with any sort of excuse, so why not take out some more and go down in history.

 

[Aladdin]

This isnt really terrorism. Terrorism has some sort of ideology.
Not getting laid and hating women is not an ideology

It's certainly terrifying for women that there are men like this prepared to hate them and act on their hate in violent ways.

And incels definitely have shared ideologies and strategies albeit warped ones.

 

[andysays]

It's certainly terrifying for women that there are men like this prepared to hate them and act on their hate in violent ways.

And incels definitely have shared ideologies and strategies albeit warped ones.

These things are both true, but it doesn't necessarily follow that this was an act of terrorism according to the definition posted above, which includes

It must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause

It's possible that these actions were intended to advance his shit ideological cause, though that is at least uncertain at the moment.

We can of course discuss whether the legal definition is adequate, and point out that the police seem to have been very keen to announce that it wasn't terrorism without really knowing for sure.

Reading about the background to this young man and the ways in which representative of this incel ideology, I was reminded of one former poster here, whose main subject was his resentment about not having a girlfriend or a decent job, and very quickly unleashed a shit wave of misogyny when people (mostly women) tried to engage with him.

 

[bimble]

It's not obvious to me where the line is between killing strangers 'to advance an ideological cause' and killing them because you're full of hatred that's inspired by your ideology.
Interesting that in Canada they went back and re-classified their machete masssage parlor attacker last year from a murderer to a terrorist. Canada police say machete killing was 'incel' terror attack

 

[RileyOBlimey]

That the police have ruled out terrorism and links to the far-right is absurd.

Oh well if the police have ruled it out that must the case.

 

[Dogsauce]

It does sorta look like he just picked off the first people he saw, after killing his Mum. The others were men and women in their 50s and 60s, just the people who happened to be there before he ran out of ammo or anger. He'd already shot one person, couldn't get away with any sort of excuse, so why not take out some more and go down in history.

The mentality will be “See, this is what happens when you don’t sleep with me. This is what feminism has done.” or something like that. That will be the ‘cause’ being advanced by their terror.

 

[bimble]

The bit that scares me the most about the whole incel ‘movement’ is that all you need to do to find its embrace is google something like How can I get a girlfriend.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

“it” is the police and when they stress something is not terrorist related they’re often covering up right wing terrorism.

The dibble have got some bigger questions to answer at present, like: why did they give him his guns and license back after confiscating them a few months earlier? Who did the risk assessment? What was the assault he was involved in? Did he threaten/carry a shooter in that incident? Did they see his social media and decide ‘yeah, he can have his lethal shotguns returns to him’

In amongst the theorising about the undoubted (and disturbing) Incel sub culture - and some overreach by some on this thread - it’s important sight isn’t lost of what looks like an emerging story of rank criminal negligence by the cops.

 

[BigMoaner]

Good basic exploration of the incel world and some of the issues discussed on here

Yep goodish article

 

[Spymaster]

The bit that scares me the most about the whole incel ‘movement’ is that all you need to do to find its embrace is google something like How can I get a girlfriend.

Is it actually a “movement” then? Do these losers organise themselves, like having meetings and get-togethers?

 

[BigMoaner]

Community is prob a better word. They meet online and bond over hatred.

 

[krtek a houby]

Community is prob a better word. They meet online and bond over hatred.

virgin75

 

[bimble]

Is it actually a “movement” then? Do these losers organise themselves, like having meetings and get-togethers?

i stuck it in speech marks cos not sure if it counts as a movement, maybe more of an online subculture. definitely offers people something powerful, a sense of community, shared enemies, an explanation for their suffering and a whole new vocabulary etc.

 

[maomao]

Is it actually a “movement” then? Do these losers organise themselves, like having meetings and get-togethers?

They have websites and manifestos and stuff.

 

[Orang Utan]

it’s interesting, this debate about terrorism. if its intention is to terrorise people, is it still terrorism if it seems to be nothing more than vicious spite that’s driving many of these men who go on shooting sprees or blow themselves up?

 

[BigMoaner]

Theres a sub reddit called Nice guys

Women post up text exchanges of blokes hitting on them online and it goes like this, the guy is nice, nice, nice, nice, "your so beautiful etc" and other cheeseball approaches.

Shen then turns him down/says not interested etc.

And it then switches instantly to abuse, abuse, abuse, abuse. Most of it misogynistic.

It'll be these "nice guys" who seek out these type of views imo. Putting up a facade to get something. Don't get it, the seething mess beneath emerges.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Plymouth being a poor town services are stretched.

If this is accurate I hope their is serious look at how seaside town like this needs more resources.

I don't think comments on white supremacy or farmers on this thread really help.

A lot of people struggle in South West of England. Farmers, Fisherman and working class people in South West are often forgetton with the concentration of news on other parts of England.

Good post, some very necessary points you raise about the practical consequences of poverty and the lived impact of austerity in working class areas. This is important because for every cunt there are millions of people denied access to mental health and physical health services and forms of care.

I was reading about Blaenau Gwent yesterday: another poor place abandoned once the pits went. 1 in 6 of the population are on medication for depression, youth suicides are disturbingly high, 25% of the population reported mental or physical health conditions that are life affecting in the census return, drug and alcohol dependency has exploded over the last 49 years with intergenerational links clear. What Raymond Williams called ‘the resources of hope’ appear to be entirely drained from the place. An odd kind of privilege I reckon.

In amongst the acres of coverage of this sickening event there are important wider questions being raised here about the reality of lives in these places and the collapsing ‘sticking plaster’ that capitalism provides to tend to its victims

 

[SpookyFrank]

Is it actually a “movement” then? Do these losers organise themselves, like having meetings and get-togethers?

There are people who very deliberately weaponise the feelings of unhappy young men and work to turn them against women. There is also a lot of self-reinforcement of these ideas among peers. Whether you call it a movement or not, it's all very real to a lot of people. The consequences are real. Some might say there's no ideology, there's no ultimate goal but I'd disagree with that, I think the people who fuel a lot of this stuff have specific goals in mind and specific strategies for achieving them.

 

[BigMoaner]

There are people who very deliberately weaponise the feelings of unhappy young men and work to turn them against women. There is also a lot of self-reinforcement of these ideas among peers. Whether you call it a movement or not, it's all very real to a lot of people. The consequences are real. Some might say there's no ideology, there's no ultimate goal but I'd disagree with that, I think the people who fuel a lot of this stuff have specific goals in mind and specific strategies for achieving them.

And specific money to be made.

 

[krtek a houby]

it’s interesting, this debate about terrorism. if its intention is to terrorise people, is it still terrorism if it seems to be nothing more than vicious spite that’s driving many of these men who go on shooting sprees or blow themselves up?

Self-loathing, misogyny, spite, far right ideologies... and out of feeling hard done by/entitled, they find solace online where they can trade ideas and blame women, people in relationships, society etc.

It's a movement that would probably be less prominent pre-internet times. And like every movement, it will have factions. But also, it's not a membership card carrying organisation.

There's a lot of them over this side of the world. Thankfully they tend to stay online, rather than act out their agenda.

 

[BigMoaner]

monitiesed extremism. Twats with studios in their bedrooms. YouTube pays HUGE.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Is it actually a “movement” then? Do these losers organise themselves, like having meetings and get-togethers?

I can’t pretend that I’ve every really clocked or read anything about this Incel stuff. But the idea of wanting to join a group/go to a meeting etc with fellow losers seems incredible to me. I would be very interested if anyone here can recommend some good reading on this sub-culture, how it organises itself, it’s ‘manifestos’, it’s composition, origins etc.

 

[krtek a houby]

Self-loathing, misogyny, spite, far right ideologies... and out of feeling hard done by/entitled, they find solace online where they can trade ideas and blame women, people in relationships, society etc.

It's a movement that would probably be less prominent pre-internet times. And like every movement, it will have factions. But also, it's not a membership card carrying organisation.

There's a lot of them over this side of the world. Thankfully they tend to stay online, rather than act out their agenda.

That said, this happened recently

Man, out to kill "happy women," nabbed over random Tokyo train attack