Scoffing too much meat and eggs is ‘just as bad as smoking’, claim scientists

[ViolentPanda]

Couldn't we have just left it at 'it's probably a good idea for everyone to cut down meat consumption as it's not environmentally sustainable to produce this much meat?'

Part of the "argument" that gets ignored is in how many Euro-cultures meat-eating is still seen to signal a degree of "having enough", because as recently as 5 decades ago, eating much meat every day, unless it were the cheapest cuts or mince in small portions, wasn't part of working-class culture in the way that it supposedly became from the '60s-onward in Europe. You need to remove that cultural perception (and the similar one in the US, where the steak is worshipped) before you'll be able to make a convincing argument about reduction of consumption.

 

[ddraig]

What bit of 'we can thrive without meat' are you struggling with?

so you can't just say no?
maybe you do consider yourself a healthier supreme being!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'I'm opposed to the death penalty for any kind of murder.'

'So you wouldn't support the death penalty for Ian Huntley for murdering those girls?'

'I just told you that I'm opposed to the death penalty for any kind murder.'

'So you can't just say no?'

 

[Doctor Carrot]

oh "carrots have got feelings too, so ner " , "how do YOU know that brocoli doesn't scream when you are boiling it??! eh eh, got you there!" shit argument

I wasn't talking about carrots I'm not even trying to trip you up as I couldn't a flying fuck what you put in your mouth or not. The question I'm asking remains. Some vegans I know don't even eat honey because 'it's stealing from bees' which does make me chuckle but ok. Every vegan dodges this question though and I wonder why? If you do in fact swat flies, kill germs and so on why? I agree with you that the 'carrots have feelings' argument is a crass one but why is the flies/germs one? They are very much animals and not plants. So why is a chicken spared but not a bluebottle?

 

[ViolentPanda]

When you're in a hole .....

Then your behaviour should be dictated by what sort of hole you're in.

 

[cesare]

Honey is an animal product like dairy - that's why (some) vegans are against it.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Honey is an animal product like dairy - that's why (some) vegans are against it.

Yeah I know why they don't use it. I guess it depends on your reasons for being a vegan. Most vegans I've met say it's because killing and using animals is wrong. Fine. How far does that extend though? If it doesn't extend to germs, flies and so on why not? They're just as alive as a chicken is.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

oh ffs
there may not be a biological 'reason' but the majority of people who are vegi do it for an ethical reason.

The majority of vegetarians live in India. They do it for the same reason that British eat bangers and mash: because that's how they were raised.

There is a disturbing tendency in this discussion to act as if the people of the wealthy nations, are the only people. Most of the people in the world don't live there. Zero consideration is being paid to how life is lived in the poor but populous countries.

 

[cesare]

Yeah I know why they don't use it. I guess it depends on your reasons for being a vegan. Most vegans I've met say it's because killing and using animals is wrong. Fine. How far does that extend though? If it doesn't extend to germs, flies and so on why not? They're just as alive as a chicken is.

I prefer veganism to vegetarianism. Yes, you can point to some hypocrisy as you say with flies etc but but nearly so much as the half way moralising dairy eaters.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I prefer veganism to vegetarianism. Yes, you can point to some hypocrisy as you say with flies etc but but nearly so much as the half way moralising dairy eaters.

There's no hypocrisy if you consider that there is some cut-off point below which an animal does not have sufficient subjective awareness to deserve moral consideration. Even if it's necessarily a fuzzy line.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I prefer veganism to vegetarianism. Yes, you can point to some hypocrisy as you say with flies etc but but nearly so much as the half way moralising dairy eaters.

I'm really not trying to say 'ner ner you're a hypocrite' as I said, it's entirely up to you what you stick in your mouth or not and is none of my concern. Why are dairy eaters more hypocritical though? What is the difference between burning thousands of live animals in your toilet with industrial strength cleaner and taking calves away from their mother? I just can't get why one is worse than the other and I'm somehow complicit in brutal murder for one thing but not the other. I'm not saying you're accusing me of that but I have met vegans who have.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

There's no hypocrisy if you consider that there is some cut-off point below which an animal does not have sufficient subjective awareness to deserve moral consideration. Even if it's necessarily a fuzzy line.

So it's the awareness factor more than the actual killing? That's a fair point.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So it's the awareness factor more than the actual killing? That's a fair point.

I'm not saying that this idea isn't fraught and infinitely contestable. It is.

 

[cesare]

I'm really not trying to say 'ner ner you're a hypocrite' as I said, it's entirely up to you what you stick in your mouth or not and is none of my concern. Why are dairy eaters more hypocritical though? What is the difference between burning thousands of live animals in your toilet with industrial strength cleaner and taking calves away from their mother? I just can't get why one is worse than the other and I'm somehow complicit in brutal murder for one thing but not the other. I'm not saying you're accusing me of that but I have met vegans who have.

If (big if, some vegetarians just don't like the taste/texture of meat) the vegetarian standpoint is not eating meat because of an ethical stand on killing and expropriation from animals, then I find that much harder to accept than the vegan standpoint because dairy eating/leather wearing vegetarians are just a little bit ethical.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As has been pointed out, if you drink cow's milk, you might as well eat veal. Ethically, they are equivalent.

In fact, you could make the case that to drink milk and not eat veal is less ethical than drinking milk and eating veal.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

If (big if, some vegetarians just don't like the taste/texture of meat) the vegetarian standpoint is not eating meat because of an ethical stand on killing and expropriation from animals, then I find that much harder to accept than the vegan standpoint because dairy eating/leather wearing vegetarians are just a little bit ethical.

Yeah that's a fair point too. I guess like most things it's personal preference and personal reasons for doing such things. Some do really make me chuckle though, like the bee thing and I could never understand the problem with eating eggs? Chickens lay eggs anyway so no harm is done to the chicken at all, leaving aside horrendous farming practices of course!

 

[cesare]

Yeah that's a fair point too. I guess like most things it's personal preference and personal reasons for doing such things. Some do really make me chuckle though, like the bee thing and I could never understand the problem with eating eggs? Chickens lay eggs anyway so no harm is done to the chicken at all, leaving aside horrendous farming practices of course!

I actually "get" the bee thing We're going to regret our bee labour expropriation at some point, if not already. Oh, and eggs are chicken periods.

 

[joustmaster]

Yeah that's a fair point too. I guess like most things it's personal preference and personal reasons for doing such things. Some do really make me chuckle though, like the bee thing and I could never understand the problem with eating eggs? Chickens lay eggs anyway so no harm is done to the chicken at all, leaving aside horrendous farming practices of course!

Well the egg thing is exactly because of the fact that millions of day old chicks are killed because they are male and can't lay eggs.
And because some vegans think its wrong to keep and use animals at all, whether they are killed or not.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I actually "get" the bee thing We're going to regret our bee labour expropriation at some point, if not already. Oh, and eggs are chicken periods.

This is the 'yuck' factor in becoming a vegan. I wonder how important it is in making the decision - the veggies I've known who still craved meat (normally bacon) have often been the ones who didn't keep it up.

 

[joustmaster]

I actually "get" the bee thing We're going to regret our bee labour expropriation at some point, if not already. Oh, and eggs are chicken periods.

If you use milk, that calf would be taken from its mother and killed anyway.

Don't try to gross me out, next you'll be telling me about bee vomit (honey) and chicken periods (unfertilised eggs).

20 page rolleyes.

 

[cesare]

This is the 'yuck' factor in becoming a vegan. I wonder how important it is in making the decision - the veggies I've known who still craved meat (normally bacon) have often been the ones who didn't keep it up.

Aye there's a yuk factor for some people. Those people wouldn't fancy the practice of bleeding live animals (a little bit of blood) for sustenance either.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And because some vegans think its wrong to keep and use animals at all, whether they are killed or not.

This is a potentially logically consistent ethical pov, imo. Hard to live by, mind.

 

[cesare]

20 page rolleyes.

Useful sustenance in periods. Don't tell me you'll only eat chicken periods

 

[Spymaster]

Yeah that's a fair point too. I guess like most things it's personal preference and personal reasons for doing such things. Some do really make me chuckle though, like the bee thing and I could never understand the problem with eating eggs?

If you want a proper laugh look up "peace fruitarians". I don't think there are many of them and from what I gather it's rarely a permanent diet, but these guys won't even eat fruit if it has to be picked. Only if it's already fallen from the tree. Something about "coexisting in peace with all living things" and taking branched fruit would be nicking it, or cause the tree pain by cutting it off.

As you say, each to their own. Doesn't mean we can't have a giggle though.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah I know why they don't use it. I guess it depends on your reasons for being a vegan. Most vegans I've met say it's because killing and using animals is wrong. Fine. How far does that extend though? If it doesn't extend to germs, flies and so on why not? They're just as alive as a chicken is.

Is it ok to use cow manure as fertilizer? It's an animal byproduct. Silk is an animal byproduct.

 

[Greebo]

<snip>Oh, and eggs are chicken periods.

I said that on the first page!

 

[cesare]

I said that on the first page!

Merely reinforcing your original point

 

[cesare]

The camel is used for several purposes for which its role is essential. It is used as a beast of burden for transporting goods and people as well as for providing milk. Milk is often the only regular food source for its owners. The camel's meat, wool and leather are also widely utilized. In some parts of East Africa, the animal is bled regularly and its blood consumed fresh or mixed with milk. The camel is universally highly valued and provides social standing for its owner.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/t0755e/t0755e01.htm

 

[andysays]

There's no hypocrisy if you consider that there is some cut-off point below which an animal does not have sufficient subjective awareness to deserve moral consideration. Even if it's necessarily a fuzzy line.

In this case, you could say it's a buzzy line.

You could make a rational argument for using honey but not milk on the basis that bees are not robbed of all their food supply by the (appropriate) removal of honey, but there's no real way of farming milk on all but the most occasional basis without having to kill unwanted calves.

 

[mr steev]

Silk is an animal byproduct.

Silk isn't a byproduct. The lava are killed to get the silk. All the vegans I know/knew who had a problem with honey and wool etc boycotted silk too