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Scoffing too much meat and eggs is ‘just as bad as smoking’, claim scientists

The substance of what you said is, I'm a troll.

Now you want reflection on.... what?

You want a discussion, grow up first.

The substance of what I've said is that is incoherent and hypocritical for someone to bemoan the use of the byproducts of one species (silk worms) while endulging in the byproducts of another (yeast used in fermentation). This, combined with his various other "contributions" over the course of the thread, leads me to the conclusion that he is simply trolling, that he has nothing of any value to the discussion.

I haven't come to that conclusion about you yet but, you know, I'm certainly moving in that direction...
 
The substance of what I've said is that is incoherent and hypocritical for someone to bemoan the use of the byproducts of one species (silk worms) while endulging in the byproducts of another (yeast used in fermentation). <snip>
Is yeast more similar to a plant than to an animal?
 
Or perhaps a considered opinion after reading his "contributions", engaging with him and deciding that he's not actually interested, even if he were capable, of coming up with anything coherent.

(the latest example, in case you need me to spell it out, is that he throws his hands up in horror at the idea of silk worms being exploited by being farmed and their byproducts used, but is more than happy to endulge in alcohol, the byproduct of fermentation using, and then killing, yeast)
are you talking about me here? :confused:
if you are please quote where i've thrown my hands up in horror about silk worms?
and another bit of hypocrisy hunting there
oh and wheat does me in so you are wrong there too
appreciate if you stop making wild assumptions and accusations
 
Is yeast more similar to a plant than to an animal?

Yeast is classed as a fungi, so neither animal or plant.

If anyone wants to argue that the use of byproducts from animal processes and the killing of those animals to exploit those byproducts (eg silk, honey, etc) is immoral, unethical, whatever, but doing so with fungi (or plants) is not (in other words, that there is something special about all animal life which doesn't apply to non-animal life, and which means we shouldn't exploit any animal life in any way*), then I'd be interested to read such an argument.

ETA *but we can do so freely with any other form of life
 
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are you talking about me here? :confused:
if you are please quote where i've thrown my hands up in horror about silk worms...

this
and is it not because it [silk] is an animal byproduct and they [silk worms] are sometimes farmed for it?
so that is where the objection comes from iirc

So just to clarify, is it OK to use silk worms and their byproducts or not? And if not, why not?

...appreciate if you stop making wild assumptions and accusations

Says the one who's been making wild assumptions and accusations since the thread began...
 
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Everyone draws their line. It would be as bonkers to draw the line at yeast as at plants, imo. Some kind of nervous system involving differentiation of tissues must surely be a prerequisite.

The 'what is it like to be...' question is relevant here, I think. Not easy to answer.
 
So just to clarify, is it OK to use silk worms and their byproducts or not? And if not, why not?



Says the one who's been making wild assumptions and accusations since the thread began...
so how is that in anyway "throwing my hands up in horror"? :confused: it was actually asking for a clarification. so what you claimed was incorrect.
reel it in please
 
Everyone draws their line. It would be as bonkers to draw the line at yeast as at plants, imo. Some kind of nervous system involving differentiation of tissues must surely be a prerequisite.

The 'what is it like to be...' question is relevant here, I think. Not easy to answer.

Yes, everyone draws their line, but if they want it to be more than just their own line, if they want to criticise others for drawing a different line and make wild accusations of them for doing so, they need to have some coherent and justifiable basis for doing so, otherwise it's just hot air.

And some plants have some kind of nervous system involving differentiation of tissues, so this is not a basis for differentiating.
 
I think I must have been expressing it badly. My fault. But individual choices within a market are not going to be enough. Structurally, they can never be enough.

'ethical meat' will have the premium for its enhanced ethicality. 'unethical meat' will be priced at a level that those at the bottom end of the wage scale can afford. Such people will not be able to afford to be ethical. And the market will be structured such that both exist - wherever the cheapest meat is unethical, wages will be set at a level such that those at the bottom will (on average) only be able to afford unethical meat.

Individual choices by consumers can never eliminate cheap, unethical protein until such a point is reached that the poorest can demand better wages. In fact, the existence of cheap protein is a contributory factor towards those low wages.

You cannot address issues such as animal rights without addressing the issue of human rights and the exploitation of humans.

This is not about an external authority. It is about the fact that certain social conditions can only be changed by collective effort. Individual consumer choices cannot effect such changes.

I am talking here about cumulative, aggregate behaviour. At the individual level, there will be those who do not buy unethical meat even though they are poor. But asking poor people as an aggregate to sacrifice for the sake of ethicality far more than richer people have to is not realistic. As an aggregate, the poorer you are, the more likely you are to buy unethical meat - because it's cheaper. You cannot solve the problem of unethical meat without first solving the problem of human poverty.

imho animals rights people who do not understand this are lacking in their political outlook. You need to empower people to make better choices. A dose of socialism would do that. And yes, socialism can only come from us, from below. But it comes from collective action, not from an aggregate of individual choices. That's why unions exist.

I've just dropped back into this thread and I found your post interesting. I have things in common with your way of thinking but I see things differently.

Individual choice is enough for me. By that I mean the motivation for doing something does not have to be that you are wanting social change as a result of your actions. It's enough for me that I'm fortunate enough to largely let my actions follow my principles. My actions create my world.

Thinking of bedding your actions for the purpose of collective good lets you fall into traps. For example

"You cannot solve the problem of unethical meat without first solving the problem of human poverty."

Therefore I will do nothing. It's not my problem. It's the problem of society.

The truth is that you can solve the problems of unethical meat in circumstances you have control of. This enough motivation for me to attempt to make my consumption patterns 'ethical'.

Also personally I feel that (a minimum level)respect for animals should be absolute. Socialism may well help raise people living standards but you don't need socialism to implement minimum standards. Sure in a global capitalist world you have your problems setting these standards but wider society still has some tools to use to raise animal welfare without first waiting for a revolution.
 
You suggest that are some ways of killing animals you find "unacceptable", suggesting you wouldnt accept it... do you feel like you have any idea what death an animal you eat has had? I'd hedge my bets it was even the animal it said on the packaging, never mind if it had been killed in some kind of blissful stress-free way. The only way you can know is to see it for yourself.
Leicester survey finds half of meat product samples contained DNA of wrong animals, reinforcing fears of widespread meat contamination
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ts-contained-dna-wrong-animals-council-survey
 
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