Scoffing too much meat and eggs is ‘just as bad as smoking’, claim scientists

[free spirit]

is there owt vaguely interesting in this thread? I'm assuming not from this page.

 

[8ball]

is there owt vaguely interesting in this thread? I'm assuming not from this page.

No spoilers - you're going to have to read it.

 

[free spirit]

No spoilers - you're going to have to read it.

nah, don't think I am tbh.

 

[8ball]

nah, don't think I am tbh.

I think you are.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

We don't need to kill animals to meet our dietry needs. We (the developed world) have the resources and the ability to feed ourselves without killing animals to do so. .

What about the rest of the world, ie, most of humanity. Most of humanity doesn't live in the developed world.

 

[ska invita]

I'm no expert in ethics but clearly there are some differences between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom which could lead one to think that humans are "special" whatever that means.

as an aside, that hierarchical classification of life/death has a direct parallel with eugenics - "Life unworthy of life" to coin a phrase http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_unworthy_of_life

 

[ddraig]

What about the rest of the world, ie, most of humanity. Most of humanity doesn't live in the developed world.

it is one of the caveats

 

[Spymaster]

as an aside, that hierarchical classification of life/death has a direct parallel with eugenics - "Life unworthy of life" to coin a phrase http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_unworthy_of_life

I reckon you just activated Godwin's there!

 

[andysays]

I reckon you just activated Godwin's there!

Already been done:

...I think this may be the point in the thread where I point out that, as we all know, Hitler was a vegetarian...

Do keep up

 

[Spymaster]

Do keep up

Aye.

But I think you've got to do some pretty serious theoretical gymnastics to parallel killing humans with killing animals under any circumstances. There's a fundamental failure there as only the loopiest AR types would claim that animal lives are anywhere near as important as people's. If we accept that, the eugenics comparison falls at the first hurdle.

It's a position that usually gets wheeled-out in vivisection debates.

 

[andysays]

Aye.

But I think you've got to do some pretty serious theoretical gymnastics to parallel killing humans with killing animals under any circumstances. There's a fundamental failure there as only the loopiest AR types would claim that animal lives are as important as peoples. If we accept that, the eugenics comparison falls at the first hurdle.

Yeah, well it appears that there are those on this thread who have argued that at least some animal lives are as important as humans, by making the criterion for importance self-awareness. I suppose that allows them to argue that there are degrees of self awareness, and that humans are more important than, say, dogs, but I would suggest that the difference is qualitative, not quantitative.

Arguing that humans are in a different category doesn't mean we can't also say that animals are important, of course, just that it's a different order of importance.

Or maybe I don't really mean any of that and I'm just being "devil's advocate". It's so hard to tell these days...

 

[ska invita]

But I think you've got to do some pretty serious theoretical gymnastics to parallel killing humans with killing animals under any circumstances. There's a fundamental failure there as only the loopiest AR types would claim that animal lives are as important as peoples. If we accept that, the eugenics comparison falls at the first hurdle.

I agree its not the same thing - though i have a huge amount of sympathy with that position put by AR people, and act in my day to day like I believe it - though of course i would save the life of a human over that of an animal if faced with a choice of one over the other. That situation hasnt hasnt come up yet.

I think it is worth bearing it in mind though, as at the heart of the subject is a value system that quanitfies life, and eugenics programmes do occupy similiar philosphical territory. Its all good stuff to muse on though.

Another thing we havent touched on I dont think (I havent read the whole thread) is human biology. Monkeys are a mixture of herbivores and omnivores, depending on the species. Our simean ancestors are omnivores, but its worth noting that meat forms only a tiny percentage of their diet, and is most often eaten after killing another monkey and eating it in a ritualistic, fuck you i just killed you, fashion, or very occasionally in a scavenging way. Our short intestine and other organs are evolutionarily designed for a non-meat diet. Evolutionarily speaking flesh can be eaten in small quantites, but its not good for our systems - our systems arent designed for it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Our short intestine and other organs are evolutionarily designed for a non-meat diet. Evolutionarily speaking flesh can be eaten in small quantites, but its not good for our systems.

This isn't true. Humans have flexible dietary potential, as my link earlier to Inuit all-meat-and-fish diet explained. There are lots of ways for humans to eat healthily, and we can withstand quite happily diets with up to 40 per cent protein content.

I'm not saying that we should eat meat - we can thrive without it. But there is no biological reason whatever why we should not. And a bit of meat mixed with lots of veg can be positively good for us. Meat's a good way of providing various vitamins and minerals.

I used to know someone who lacked certain enzymes in his stomach and could not eat meat. He couldn't digest it. He had a genetic makeup that precluded animal (and some other forms of) protein from his diet. But most of us do have the enzymes - we have evolved to be able to digest meat.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Couldn't we have just left it at 'it's probably a good idea for everyone to cut down meat consumption as it's not environmentally sustainable to produce this much meat?'

Anyway, to any vegans on here how do you deal with killing germs around your home? Has this already been dealt with? I've often wondered that. If vegans think it's wrong to kill a living thing what's their position on germs, flys and so on?

 

[andysays]

I agree its not the same thing - though i have a huge amount of sympathy with that position put by AR people, and act in my day to day like I believe it - though of course i would save the life of a human over that of an animal if faced with a choice of one over the other. That situation hasnt hasnt come up yet.

I think it is worth bearing it in mind though, as at the heart of the subject is a value system that quanitfies life, and eugenics programmes do occupy similiar philosphical territory. Its all good stuff to muse on though.

Another thing we havent touched on I dont think (I havent read the whole thread) is human biology. Monkeys are a mixture of herbivores and omnivores, depending on the species. Our simean ancestors are omnivores, but its worth noting that meat forms only a tiny percentage of their diet, and is most often eaten after killing another monkey and eating it in a ritualistic, fuck you i just killed you, fashion, or very occasionally in a scavenging way. Our short intestine and other organs are evolutionarily designed for a non-meat diet. Evolutionarily speaking flesh can be eaten in small quantites, but its not good for our systems - our systems arent designed for it.

I have a vague recollection that one of the things which allowed our simian ancestors to evolve into the species we are today was eating an increased amount of protein in meat and so developing larger brains.

I agree that much of this debate is worth having, but I'm going to bow out for now because I've got IRL things to do which I've been neglecting.

 

[gabi]

I've asked Christians and other assorted religious nutters a similar question. If we all have souls, and we all go to heaven/hell... Can you imagine the sheer quantity of fucking mozzies up/down there? I've personally accounted for thousands of the fuckers.

 

[ska invita]

I have a vague recollection that one of the things which allowed our simian ancestors to evolve into the species we are today was eating an increased amount of protein in meat and so developing larger brains.

I agree that much of this debate is worth having, but I'm going to bow out for now because I've got IRL things to do which I've been neglecting.

a viscious lie put out by the meat lobby!
My preferred theory is that its the ingestion of psychoactive naturally occuring plantlife that created the evolutionary boost.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have a vague recollection that one of the things which allowed our simian ancestors to evolve into the species we are today was eating an increased amount of protein in meat and so developing larger brains.
.

Very speculative, that, mind. And there are counter-examples. Elephants have developed large brains on a veggie diet.

You're on safer ground saying that humans' omnivorous potential gave them a greater flexibility and ability to exploit different strategies, and that this may have been a selection pressure for larger brains. Human brains have actually shrunk a bit in the last few hundred thousand years. (These pressures work both ways, in fact - larger brains leading to a selection pressure for more flexible dietary abilities: if you now have the ability to hunt animals, the genes coding for enzymes to digest meat will be selected.)

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I've asked Christians and other assorted religious nutters a similar question. If we all have souls, and we all go to heaven/hell... Can you imagine the sheer quantity of fucking mozzies up/down there? I've personally accounted for thousands of the fuckers.

Yeah and they're all waiting for ya, gabi.

'Go on it's ok. Just stick your hand through those pearly gates...'

 

[Idris2002]

I'll give you my meat

 

[ddraig]

This isn't true. Humans have flexible dietary potential, as my link earlier to Inuit all-meat-and-fish diet explained. There are lots of ways for humans to eat healthily, and we can withstand quite happily diets with up to 40 per cent protein content.

I'm not saying that we should eat meat - we can thrive without it. But there is no biological reason whatever why we should not. And a bit of meat mixed with lots of veg can be positively good for us. Meat's a good way of providing various vitamins and minerals.

I used to know someone who lacked certain enzymes in his stomach and could not eat meat. He couldn't digest it. He had a genetic makeup that precluded animal (and some other forms of) protein from his diet. But most of us do have the enzymes - we have evolved to be able to digest meat.

oh ffs
there may not be a biological 'reason' but the majority of people who are vegi do it for an ethical reason.
in your opinion am i not feeding myself properly and also did my parents bring me up wrongly by not eating meat?

 

[ViolentPanda]

You do realise that accusing someone of trolling when they aren't/weren't, in fact, trolling, just makes you look like a cunt?

Surely that will depend entirely on the perception of the "audience" of the thread. What makes you assume that the "audience" will take/has taken your part?

 

[Spymaster]

I agree its not the same thing - though i have a huge amount of sympathy with that position put by AR people, and act in my day to day like I believe it - though of course i would save the life of a human over that of an animal if faced with a choice of one over the other.

Are you a veggie/vegan, Ska?

 

[ddraig]

Couldn't we have just left it at 'it's probably a good idea for everyone to cut down meat consumption as it's not environmentally sustainable to produce this much meat?'

Anyway, to any vegans on here how do you deal with killing germs around your home? Has this already been dealt with? I've often wondered that. If vegans think it's wrong to kill a living thing what's their position on germs, flys and so on?

oh "carrots have got feelings too, so ner " , "how do YOU know that brocoli doesn't scream when you are boiling it??! eh eh, got you there!" shit argument

 

[Spymaster]

in your opinion am i not feeding myself properly and also did my parents bring me up wrongly by not eating meat?

What the fucking fuck are you on about?

LBJ has said on several occasions that meat is not necessary for a healthy diet.

If anything it's you who's been disrespectful of OUR parents who fed us meat as you've said that eating it is WRONG.

 

[ska invita]

Are you a veggie/vegan, Ska?

Yeah lazy vegan - eat the odd egg and avoid dairy as best I can.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

oh ffs
there may not be a biological 'reason' but the majority of people who are vegi do it for an ethical reason.
in your opinion am i not feeding myself properly and also did my parents bring me up wrongly by not eating meat?

What bit of 'we can thrive without meat' are you struggling with?

 

[ddraig]

ok badly worded
do you consider yourself healthier than me by the fact that you eat meat and i don't?

 

[Spymaster]

When you're in a hole .....

 

[littlebabyjesus]

ok badly worded
do you consider yourself healthier than me by the fact that you eat meat and i don't?

What bit of 'we can thrive without meat' are you struggling with?