[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[Magnus McGinty]

Well the ‘terfs’ aren’t generally anarchists; and expecting police to ‘sort out’ harassment and assault is, er, quite normal.

I’m not sure what your point is.

Well then you either don’t understand irony, or anarchism.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well then you either don’t understand irony, or anarchism.

Or both

 

[Pickman's model]

Well the ‘terfs’ aren’t generally anarchists; and expecting police to ‘sort out’ harassment and assault is, er, quite normal.

I’m not sure what your point is.

Yeh. You've not caught on the opposition anarchists have to the state

 

[Pickman's model]

It would be a shame not to have a bookfair in 2018 but I think anyone that takes it on is going to have to deal with a lot more than simply organising the event and dealing with the criticisms of the various open letter writers.... Might it be seen as a bit of a betrayal by the bookfair collective also?

Have you read the BC statement?

 

[Thimble Queen]

Have you read the BC statement?

Yeah when it first came out along with the others.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah when it first came out along with the others.

They don't suggest or imply people organising a bookfair would be betraying them. Whatever gave you such a notion?

 

[Thimble Queen]

They don't suggest or imply people organising a bookfair would be betraying them. Whatever gave you such a notion?

It was a question not a statement.

 

[Pickman's model]

It was a question not a statement.

yeh. what prompted you to ask the question? what gave you the idea that they might feel betrayed?

 

[Pickman's model]

seems to me they're not fussed if people do a bookfair next year. but i suspect the earliest a bookfair might be organised is 2019

 

[Athos]

It's more than a bit of a poison chalice now though....


It reads as half written to me. Like someone set out with full and clear intentions and then thought...'that'll do..'

Those leaflets were awful/piss poor however the response to those and other tactics need discussing IMO.

It's all out anarchy and 'by any means necessary' meaning violence as a means of protest and no platforming or it isn't.

Please would you explain what you mean in the last paragraph?

 

[Thimble Queen]

View attachment 121056
seems to me they're not fussed if people do a bookfair next year. but i suspect the earliest a bookfair might be organised is 2019

Thanks for quoting that. I don't actually remember reading that in the statement. It's good to hear that they would be cool with whoever, if anyone, gives it a go next year.

 

[Shechemite]

Yeh. You've not caught on the opposition anarchists have to the state

Well yes, the point being that ‘terfs’ tend not to be anarchists/opposed to the state. So their getting the police involved isn’t really ironic (or particularly unreasonable given the events).

 

[Pickman's model]

Well yes, the point being that ‘terfs’ tend not to be anarchists/opposed to the state. So their getting the police involved isn’t really ironic (or particularly unreasonable given the events).

i think it would be wholly unreasonable for anyone on the left to get the police involved in a to-do like this

 

[rich!]

i think it would be wholly unreasonable for anyone on the left to get the police involved in a to-do like this

Didn't some of the TERFs involved give police statements?

 

[Pickman's model]

Didn't some of the TERFs involved give police statements?

Not to mention at least one of the Clapton fans. Not really reasonable in either case

 

[LDC]

Something from Dave Douglass as well...

Northern Voices: SORRY END TO A GREAT INSTITUTION

 

[rich!]

There's a statement from HSG on their mailing list but I'm embarrassed on their behalf so won't post it up unless they put it on a public site.

 

[ska invita]

There's a statement from HSG on their mailing list but I'm embarrassed on their behalf so won't post it up unless they put it on a public site.

out of interest what is HSG?

 

[Stig]

out of interest what is HSG?

Haringey solidarity Group

 

[Shechemite]

There's a statement from HSG on their mailing list but I'm embarrassed on their behalf so won't post it up unless they put it on a public site.

Oh you tease

 

[LDC]

There's a statement from HSG on their mailing list but I'm embarrassed on their behalf so won't post it up unless they put it on a public site.

Can't be as bad as half the statements put out by other people/groups.

 

[Brainaddict]

As far as the Freedom statement goes....

Tbh I was disappointed to see them rush straight into the condemnflation that seems all pervasive these days.

Like whenever there’s a terrorist attack all we see is a queue of people trying to condemn it more strongly than the person before them. Analysis and discussion is lost behind this moral grandstanding.

...and so it seems with the bookfair debacle.

Beyond that, I was also disappointed to see how much the language/tone/vocabulary being used echoes that of the current social media based activism.

But I s’pose that’s the audience the statement is written for.

Yeah, I found the Freedom statement a bit surprising. I'm not even an anarchist and I can see there's potentially a lot of interesting debate to be had about how to collectively self manage conflict. A 'safer spaces' policy is one way, and Freedom seem to be effectively buying into that, but without even noting that there might be other ways to deal with conflict, that the Bookfair Collective might have deliberately chosen another path, and that there might be something up for debate.

I realise I have little personal investment in this debate but as an outsider I'd say not many people have come out of it looking good, and mostly because of an unwillingness to really engage in discussion.

 

[killer b]

I think the bookfair collective come out of it very well.

 

[Brainaddict]

I think the bookfair collective come out of it very well.

I dunno. It's easy to say 'we don't have time to address these things, feel free to get involved and address them', but the reality is the terf wars are the most toxic thing going in London activism right now, have resulted in numerous conflicts, the end of various groups, and I think a previous conflict at a bookfair. The idea the BC was taken by surprise by a big hoo-ha over this issue, or were 'too busy' to think how to respond over the last three years did not strike me as particularly plausible - or if true is pretty stupid. It's like the Maldives saying they've been too busy to think about climate change.

I am left with the impression that they did somewhat pick up a side (i.e. comments many would interpret as transphobic are permitted 'free speech' while outright racism, for example, would not be tolerated) but they were not straightforward and open about their position.

 

[Pickman's model]

I dunno. It's easy to say 'we don't have time to address these things, feel free to get involved and address them', but the reality is the terf wars are the most toxic thing going in London activism right now, have resulted in numerous conflicts, the end of various groups, and I think a previous conflict at a bookfair. The idea the BC was taken by surprise by a big hoo-ha over this issue, or were 'too busy' to think how to respond over the last three years did not strike me as particularly plausible - or if true is pretty stupid. It's like the Maldives saying they've been too busy to think about climate change.

I am left with the impression that they did somewhat pick up a side (i.e. comments many would interpret as transphobic are permitted 'free speech' while outright racism, for example, would not be tolerated) but they were not straightforward and open about their position.

trans. the bookfair collective are either partial, liars, dishonest or stupid.

i've known members of the bookfair collective since my days as a callow youth in haringey anti-poll tax union and i have always known them to be upright, upfront and honest. so you can fuck right off with your accusations of dishonesty, partiality and stupidity.

 

[Brainaddict]

trans. the bookfair collective are either partial, liars, dishonest or stupid.

i've known members of the bookfair collective since my days as a callow youth in haringey anti-poll tax union and i have always known them to be upright, upfront and honest. so you can fuck right off with your accusations of dishonesty, partiality and stupidity.

They may well have drifted into the position they took, but they did take a position. Do you see how it looks strange to say they were too busy to address the trans debate and the impact of that on the bookfair?

 

[ska invita]

Yeah, I found the Freedom statement a bit surprising. I'm not even an anarchist and I can see there's potentially a lot of interesting debate to be had about how to collectively self manage conflict. A 'safer spaces' policy is one way, and Freedom seem to be effectively buying into that, but without even noting that there might be other ways to deal with conflict, that the Bookfair Collective might have deliberately chosen another path, and that there might be something up for debate.

I realise I have little personal investment in this debate but as an outsider I'd say not many people have come out of it looking good, and mostly because of an unwillingness to really engage in discussion.

im not as well read as others but earlier in the year i was reading some colin ward anecdotes about being involved with Freedom in the 60s and the debates that took place, via the letters page, amongst friends, and elsewhere. One thing that struck me was the high level of intellectual engagement with the issues of the day.

Whats happened here is a big deal I think, not just because the bookfair has stopped, but because there are some larger theoretical knots to work through and some anarchism in practice points to really flesh out and rally behind - points that will come up again and again in the near future. I'll do my best to try to get to grips with those on my own but I would look to the likes of freedom to lead from the front, and on that level the statement really disappointed me. Some links to anti-terf articles dont really cut it for me. Maybe this wasnt the time or place. Seems to me their main concern was to underline that Freedom is in no way transphobic, and to distance themselves from the bookfair collective to some degree.

I note at the end it was signed by "Freedom Collective (majority)", and I can imagine that the Minority named in absence meant there was some kind of fractious debate about all this. I might be making up stories in my head here but i felt the statement had an undertone that was bad tempered and fed up after a painful meeting. No point airing dirty laundry here - I don't really want to know the details - but I do have some sympathy with that. Its a very frustrating situation. That said, beyond statements of support or criticism, I would like to read more thought out analysis. So many anarcho talking points: self-policing, freedom of speech, inclusivity, fragility of organising, conflict resolution, anti-religious banners ( ) etc etc

Also, further to your point brainaddict of "unwillingness to really engage in discussion", i wonder how much the statements etc go in engaging debate with those who disagree with them. My impression is that nothing really gets heard in the trenches.

 

[killer b]

It seems a reasonable position to take - addressing the debate appears to take up an unlimited amount of time and energy. Strategically not having the time to address it is just fine IMO.

 

[Pickman's model]

They may well have drifted into the position they took, but they did take a position. Do you see how it looks strange to say they were too busy to address the trans debate and the impact of that on the bookfair?

have you ever noticed how run off their feet the bookfair collective are? they facilitate things, or rather they have facilitated things, for numerous organisations both formal and informal. they've done all the hard graft and logistics to get the day arranged. there's 101 things for them to do before they get onto the actual political grievances of potential attendees

 

[chilango]

It seems a reasonable position to take - addressing the debate appears to take up an unlimited amount of time and energy. Strategically not having the time to address it is just fine IMO.

I have the time, but not the inclination.

I simply don’t want to “address the debate” because there’s an awful lot of people acting like dicks and it’s incredibly toxic. Fuck that. At this point I no longer care which side is “right” or what to do about “it”. I’m staying well out of it. I expect others are too.

Of course, I’m no longer an active member of the scene. More a retired observer. So it’s easy for me to do this.