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Russian Missile Tests Off Coast of Ireland

The fishermen have now been
kebabking said:
Another Rob Gibney thread - information operations, getting your ducks in a row, not walking into traps....

Robert Gilbey (@RobGilbey) Tweeted: Let's face it, the Russians are running rings around the Irish in the information space. We've been exposed as weak to the world. Our under resourced Naval Service is being ridiculed as fishermen are stepping into the breach. Now we're seeing this. Russian embassy disputes claims of ‘absolute guarantee’ to Irish fishermen on naval exercise impact
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I think Rob Gibney is a bit naive if he thinks Ireland should or could ever match Russia in any military way.
 
Aladdin said:
The fishermen have now been



I think Rob Gibney is a bit naive if he thinks Ireland should or could ever match Russia in any military way.
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I see no one saying that Ireland, with a pop of about 5m, could or should attempt to match Russia in any way...

i see people saying that Ireland, a first world European state, should stop shooting itself in the face.
 
kebabking said:
I see no one saying that Ireland, with a pop of about 5m, could or should attempt to match Russia in any way...

i see people saying that Ireland, a first world European state, should stop shooting itself in the face.
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Ireland isn't shooting itself in the face.
You've a couple of loud eejits like Wallace and Daly who are also anti vaxx nutters...they're an embarrassment...
Most thinking people dont give them much thought since they lost the plot about masks.
 
Aladdin said:
Ireland isn't shooting itself in the face.
You've a couple of loud eejits like Wallace and Daly who are also anti vaxx nutters...they're an embarrassment...
Most thinking people dont give them much thought since they lost the plot about masks.
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It does shoot itself in the face - the Wallace's Daly's and the like are irrelevant in this - it's the disfunctional, poisonous relationship between the Department of Defence and the Military, the not appreciating that Russia will undertake information operations against the Irish state and therefore a) attempting to mitigate their effect, and b) conducting it's own information operations, basically a complete absence of planning and preparation, an assumption that if we do nothing, everything will be fine.

Its a lack of some of the most basic stuff that no other EU state, including the actual neutral ones, goes without - the primary radars, a bit SIGINT gear, the most basic underwater surveillance systems on warships, the UUV's to keep tabs on the cables - so vital for Ireland's tech-centric economy...

It's things like not having an overseas intelligence agency - all Ireland knows of the world it's what's ambassadors tell it, and what it reads in the papers - not having Defence Attaches in its embassies, these are the people who will understand the significance of something a civilian diplomat might see, but won't understand, because it's not their world.

It's not Ireland's lack of fighters, or aircraft carriers, or armoured divisions (only one of which might be a wise investment, for the avoidance of doubt), it's the lack of basic security infrastructure and attitude which is, in the end going to bite it on the arse.

The amusing thing is that it's the refusal to invest in peacetime neutrality/sovereignty that will force, in the event of a general war, Ireland to take sides on other people's terms, while the actual neutral states with their investment, exercises, cooperation with other states and the rest might we'll find themselves able to pull up the drawbridges and avoid getting involved...
 
kebabking said:
It does shoot itself in the face - the Wallace's Daly's and the like are irrelevant in this - it's the disfunctional, poisonous relationship between the Department of Defence and the Military, the not appreciating that Russia will undertake information operations against the Irish state and therefore a) attempting to mitigate their effect, and b) conducting it's own information operations, basically a complete absence of planning and preparation, an assumption that if we do nothing, everything will be fine.

Its a lack of some of the most basic stuff that no other EU state, including the actual neutral ones, goes without - the primary radars, a bit SIGINT gear, the most basic underwater surveillance systems on warships, the UUV's to keep tabs on the cables - so vital for Ireland's tech-centric economy...

It's things like not having an overseas intelligence agency - all Ireland knows of the world it's what's ambassadors tell it, and what it reads in the papers - not having Defence Attaches in its embassies, these are the people who will understand the significance of something a civilian diplomat might see, but won't understand, because it's not their world.

It's not Ireland's lack of fighters, or aircraft carriers, or armoured divisions (only one of which might be a wise investment, for the avoidance of doubt), it's the lack of basic security infrastructure and attitude which is, in the end going to bite it on the arse.

The amusing thing is that it's the refusal to invest in peacetime neutrality/sovereignty that will force, in the event of a general war, Ireland to take sides on other people's terms, while the actual neutral states with their investment, exercises, cooperation with other states and the rest might we'll find themselves able to pull up the drawbridges and avoid getting involved...
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Well that's not taking the context that the country was literally fucked up completely when the economy crashed along with decades of mass emigration that has persisted.

The Irish Army has been poorly maintained...poorly staffed and very poorly paid. They are not well equipped at all.
The navy is a sideshow. I totally agree with you there. But the country chose to support jobs and families rather than pour money into defence. Maybe being a small island made us feel secure? Maybe being part of the EU led us to feel we were protected.

Dont forget...the country was starting from scratch not so long ago without the massive traditions and support of a state army. Our independence left us with a small army poorly stocked.

Sure our gardai aren't even armed. We are not a big militarised state. People dont seem to have an appetite for that? Maybe because of civil war and the troubles that tore us apart. Who knows.

But I do suspect the situation is more nuanced than I or you can fully appreciate. And I seriously am laughing at the idea of us having fighter pilots...
 
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kebabking said:
This lad is worth following - the location the Sovs have chosen is interesting, they've been there before...

Robert Gilbey (@RobGilbey) Tweeted: Time for another thread. A live fire Russian naval exercise has been scheduled inside the Irish EEZ, at a time when tensions on Russian military build ups relative to Ukraine are high. What do we know and what can we speculate on? https://t.co/y6KA66mlry
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Sovs

:rolleyes:

Even to refer to the 'USSR' as the 'soviets' or the 'Soviet Union' is not really accurate. But to do so with the Russian Federation is certainly not.
 
Aladdin said:
Well that's not taking the context that the country was literally fucked up completely when the economy crashed along with decades of mass emigration that has persisted.

The Irish Army has been poorly maintained...poorly staffed and very poorly paid. They are not well equipped at all.
The navy is a sideshow. I totally agree with you there. But the country chose to support jobs and families rather than pour money into defence. Maybe being a small island made us feel secure? Maybe being part of the EU led us to feel we were protected.

Dont forget...the country was starting from scratch not so long ago without the massive traditions and support of a state army. Our independence left us with a small army poorly stocked.

Sure our gardai aren't even armed. We are not a big militarised state. People dont seem to have an appetite for that? Maybe because of civil war and the troubles that tore us apart. Who knows.

But I do suspect the situation is more nuanced than I or you can fully appreciate. And I seriously am laughing at the idea of us having fighter pilots...
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If they'd let me join the regs we'd have loads of tanks and fighter jets by now.

I'm not bitter or anything. No.

I remember coming back to Dublin when the Celtic Tiger had kicked in and saw some FCA lads on Grafton street and the kit they had was absolutely top notch compared to our stuff when I was in the FCA, we had old cotton fatigues, no combat uniform and back then even the regs were still using 58 pattern (late '80's).

I was trained to strip a Bren gun FFS. In 1989! :D We did have the FN though so that made up for it.

I guess when the Celtic Tiger died that investment stopped pretty damn quick and it was back to the old days of no investment, no new kit and no radar/tanks/ships.
 
spitfire said:
If they'd let me join the regs we'd have loads of tanks and fighter jets by now.

I'm not bitter or anything. No.

I remember coming back to Dublin when the Celtic Tiger had kicked in and saw some FCA lads on Grafton street and the kit they had was absolutely top notch compared to our stuff when I was in the FCA, we had old cotton fatigues, no combat uniform and back then even the regs were still using 58 pattern (late '80's).

I was trained to strip a Bren gun FFS. In 1989! :D We did have the FN though so that made up for it.

I guess when the Celtic Tiger died that investment stopped pretty damn quick and it was back to the old days of no investment, no new kit and no radar/tanks/ships.
Click to expand...

And then of course there was the army deafness thing that cost 245 million
 
Aladdin said:
Sure our gardai aren't even armed. We are not a big militarised state. People dont seem to have an appetite for that? Maybe because of civil war and the troubles that tore us apart. Who knows.

But I do suspect the situation is more nuanced than I or you can fully appreciate. And I seriously am laughing at the idea of us having fighter pilots...
Click to expand...
That car that converts to a plane has just got airworthiness certification somewhere in the Balkans. Perhaps the gardai could be dual purpose. :)
 
spitfire said:
If they'd let me join the regs we'd have loads of tanks and fighter jets by now.

I'm not bitter or anything. No.

I remember coming back to Dublin when the Celtic Tiger had kicked in and saw some FCA lads on Grafton street and the kit they had was absolutely top notch compared to our stuff when I was in the FCA, we had old cotton fatigues, no combat uniform and back then even the regs were still using 58 pattern (late '80's).

I was trained to strip a Bren gun FFS. In 1989! :D We did have the FN though so that made up for it.

I guess when the Celtic Tiger died that investment stopped pretty damn quick and it was back to the old days of no investment, no new kit and no radar/tanks/ships.
Click to expand...

Should add for the Englanders in here that the FCA = TA
 
Neutral countries are odd, as has been said they are only neutral cos others see them as such. WW2 there were loads of neutral countries in Europe, but had things gone more smoothly for Germany then Spain and Portugal would have been swallowed up without a fight, Sweden and Turkey would have gone to either Germany or Russia, had Germany managed to sort a pact out with Joe. Switzerland is very, very hard to invade for very little reward, Hitler joked the Berlin fire brigade could do it, but they couldn't, not least as the Swiss have rules against that kind of thing, but had Germany formed a pact with Russia and gone on to defeat Britain, Switzerland would also have gone without a fight as would Ireland. So it's pretty meaningless really.
 
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Well the fishermen are not going to back away.
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Neutral countries are odd, as has been said they are only neutral cos others see them as such. WW2 there were loads of neutral countries in Europe, but had things gone more smoothly for Germany then Spain and Portugal would have been swallowed up without a fight, Sweden and Turkey would have gone to either Germany or Russia, had Germany managed to sort a pact out with Joe. Switzerland is very, very hard to invade for very little reward, Hitler joked the Berlin fire brigade could do it, but they couldn't, not least as the Swiss have rules against that kind of thing, but had Germany formed a pact with Russia and gone on to defeat Britain, Switzerland would also have gone without a fight as would Ireland. So it's pretty meaningless really.
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Ah now.
Ireland in 1939 was barely able to manage itself let alone fight an invader. People were on rations til 1950 splash and the emergency ran on til 1976..or so...work was non existent.
Neutral or not we would have been swallowed up by any invader.
Remaining neutral was a survival mechanism. Hard to understand for those in the UK possibly..because the UK was part of the Empire
 
Aladdin said:
Well the fishermen are not going to back away.



Ah now.
Ireland in 1939 was barely able to manage itself let alone fight an invader. People were on rations til 1949 or so...work was non existent.
Neutral or not we would have been swallowed up by any invader.
Remaining neutral was a survival mechanism. Hard to understand for those in the UK possibly..because the UK was part of the Empire
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Of course, and Ireland is still a small country, fortunately for it there's not much there that any bigger boys would want, plus being next door to the nuclear armed UK does have some advantages...but neutrality is a false concept, it doesn't offer any protection to the neutral country, it's more a case of sitting on the side-lines and going along with whoever wins cos there's nothing you can do about it either way.
 
spitfire said:
Should add for the Englanders in here that the FCA = TA
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Amusing (?) tracker of fortunes - by the early's 00's or so the Irish Army had undertaken a hugely impressive improvement in the standard of personal gear issued to it's soldiers: softie jackets, Arktis windproofs, high quality belt-kit, bergens, Gucci boots etc.. most of which was significantly better than the stuff we got: £12 boots, wool jumper etc...

It showed. I met some Irish soldiers in Kosovo, pretty much everything I wore was private purchase, they didn't need to bother.

Our stuff started to improve - softie jackets, gore-tex, but still shit boots.

Come 2010 and our stuff rockets up in quality - we go from nasty, shit, falling apart boots bought for £12 a pair to Gucci boots from Alt-berg, Haix, Meindl, Lowa etc for £180 a pair, Carinthia thermal gear (£500 (yes, five zero zero) for the jacket and trousers, new belt-kit and body armour, but across the sea it's not going so well - replacements aren't being ordered.

By 2015 Irish soldiers are getting one pair of boots every 3 years or so, there are soldiers doing exercises in the Mourne Mountains, in winter, wearing boots wrapped in gaffer tape.

There's still no Irish desert/arid uniform - soldiers are going off on UN peacekeeping jobs in the ME and Africa wearing dark green/brown, European weight uniforms, and sweating like pigs because of it.

The most remarkable thing? In 2022, Irish reservists in - checks notes - the wettest country in Europe still don't get a personal issue of waterproof clothing. We started getting gore-tex in 1992 or so, with everyone having it by about 1995.

Simon Coveney, the Minister of Defence, wants to spend €200m hosting the America's Cup in Cork. Mr Coveney is, of course, a keen sailor. Cont on page 94....
 
Teaboy said:
Did you at least get to bore everyone in the pub senseless with your war stories?
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No war, no stories. I like my wars a long time ago and far away.

TBH I'm always hyper aware that I don't want anyone to think I'm claiming any sort of real military experience so I added the explainer for those that may not be as astute and forensic as yourself. :thumbs:

I did chip my tooth on an FN magazine when doing a combat roll down a field in the Wicklow mountains, does that count?
 
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