Russell Brand: rape and sexual abuse allegations, grifting and general dodginess - discussion

[Rob Ray]

Reeves and Mortimer treated Ulrica Johnson on Shooting Stars

I'd forgotten about them, Reeves' leg-rubbing routine always gave me the ick.

 

[Wilf]

I do wonder whether one of the reasons misogyny and sexism is rife in comedy is because nobody wants to be the one who calls out the comedian and risking being accused of "not getting the joke". It's not going to be a sole factor, but I could see how it might add to the discouragement.

Yep, it has it's own defence mechanism against such accusations pretty much built into the medium.

As discussed upthread, there's also something about the 'knowing' brand of comedy that appears amid the less regulated and managed TV in the 90s. You don't get comics going on about mother in laws and they are (somewhat) less likely to be doing 'fat women jokes'. But in this new environment you would find them being directly abusive to women in the studio - including physically - all under the cover of 'irony'.

 

[Rob Ray]

There's a part of comedy where whether it is or isn't okay which is highly contextual - there's absolutely no doubt that large parts of the public, male and female, enjoy a bit of bawdy how's-yer-father. Hell I'd guess most of us enjoy that sort of thing if we know it's all consensual and everyone's in on it. The problem with TV is that it very specifically railroads people into a position where you might be in on ("up for") it, but not being on board comes with unwelcome consequences, taking away the certainty that it's all consensual (and evidently, creating situations where it's absolutely not).

And for the audience there's a whole spectrum of thinking they are in on it (because everything on telly is fake, right), reckoning they might not be and feeling skeeved out by it, and in the darker places, reckoning they aren't in on it and finding the discomfort itself funny.

 

[Plumdaff]

I'm trying to work out whether I'm giving Reeves and Mortimer more of a pass because I like them. The joke's definitely more on Reeves in Shooting Stars, he comes across as a pathetic loser, but there's a clip of him doing it to a very uncomfortable Katie Price doing the rounds and it's pretty grim.

 

[Rob Ray]

There's a bit of a telling comment in a gushing Telegraph interview published only a couple of years ago from Reeves:

‘It’s wrong, but I did like rubbing my legs at the ladies’

Vic Reeves on 25 years of Shooting Stars: ‘It’s wrong, but I did like rubbing my legs at the ladies’

What began as a shambolic 'bit of fluff' quickly became the most brilliantly stupid show ever seen on TV. Not that everybody got the joke

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Wilf]

There's a part of comedy where whether it is or isn't okay which is highly contextual - there's absolutely no doubt that large parts of the public, male and female, enjoy a bit of bawdy how's-yer-father. Hell I'd guess most of us enjoy that sort of thing if we know it's all consensual and everyone's in on it. The problem with TV is that it very specifically railroads people into a position where you might be in on ("up for") it, but not being on board comes with unwelcome consequences, taking away the certainty that it's all consensual (and evidently, creating situations where it's absolutely not).

And for the audience there's a whole spectrum of thinking they are in on it (because everything on telly is fake, right), reckoning they might not be and feeling skeeved out by it, and in the darker places, reckoning they aren't in on it and finding the discomfort itself funny.

Seems to me there's a bit of the Milgram experiment in play. Not a particularly good comparison perhaps, but somehow the victims of abusive comedians become depersonalised and, with that, open to abuse.

 

[Dystopiary]

Sykes says something that I reckon reveals an essential part of the issue:

I rang the head of the production company, and said, 'Can you make sure in the edit I don't look out of my depth, angry or upset, because I don't have a poker face, because it's detrimental to me.

She cannot be seen to "not get the joke" (even when it's not funny) or take offence, or in any way show that she's uncomfortable. Because as she says that would be "detrimental". It wasn't his career that would've been at risk, it was hers. That speaks volumes about the people with any power around these types.

 

[newme]

Let's be fair here.

Keith Lemon/Leigh Francis has never been accused of being a glassy eyed abuser of women.

We're accusing him of being an over the top "nudge nudge wink wink" purveyor of OTT humor to get a reacion. There's at least one of those in every pub.

He knows what he is doing and almost stays on the right side of innuendo and stuff. Most of the time.

(this is nott a disclaimer or a defence of the man, but he's not been accused of Brand style issues, unless I've missed womething)

Most does not seem like enough.

 

[Wilf]

I think there's also something about relative status. It's not so much about whether Lemon or Sykes is an A list-er, neither are I imagine. It's that she's committed to doing stuff like Through the Keyhole, which means sitting there for ages, pretty much trapped there, with Lemon calling the shots. I suspect many modern comedians would have a go at any female actor or personality, however well known, in fact that's exactly what they do. But a genuine A list-er wouldn't be doing these shows or if they do appear on a chat show they do it exactly on their terms. So, suppose I'm saying something very obvious - Melanie Sykes, a well known and successful model and telly person, gets trapped and treated like shit by a misogynist and by the TV 'system'. Gee, misogyny and power again.

 

[Dystopiary]

Don't want to take things off-topic but all this time Mel Sykes had undiagnosed autism, and while it might seem like a glamorous and fun lifestyle, she's been through a lot in the entertainment business, and I think more of these kind of grim stories are going to come out. Fair play to her for speaking out about that sexist crap and also talking about her autism.

 

[Mumbles274]

I'm trying to work out whether I'm giving Reeves and Mortimer more of a pass because I like them. The joke's definitely more on Reeves in Shooting Stars, he comes across as a pathetic loser, but there's a clip of him doing it to a very uncomfortable Katie Price doing the rounds and it's pretty grim.

I always read the joke as the same. Reeves is the butt of the joke for being a pervy loser. I read the whole show at the time as such. Same as the riffing between them and Ulrika and Mark Lamaar. I may be wrong

 

[Dystopiary]

I wonder how many famous women dubbed a "diva" were just laying down reasonable boundaries (or trying to) in the face of industry-wide harassment and assault.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's a part of comedy where whether it is or isn't okay which is highly contextual - there's absolutely no doubt that large parts of the public, male and female, enjoy a bit of bawdy how's-yer-father. Hell I'd guess most of us enjoy that sort of thing if we know it's all consensual and everyone's in on it. The problem with TV is that it very specifically railroads people into a position where you might be in on ("up for") it, but not being on board comes with unwelcome consequences, taking away the certainty that it's all consensual (and evidently, creating situations where it's absolutely not).

And for the audience there's a whole spectrum of thinking they are in on it (because everything on telly is fake, right), reckoning they might not be and feeling skeeved out by it, and in the darker places, reckoning they aren't in on it and finding the discomfort itself funny.

The problem with TV is that it's seen as as something to be on, that someone being on TV gives them kudos, an elevated importance in comparison to us mere proles - that the mass of people viewing occupy a less exalted status and the higher status people who do appear on telly can do things there for which they often expect applause, or at the very least to be allowed to get away with it as they operate beyond the orbit of us mere mortals. It's no surprise the medium attracts sexual aggressors as it is the prime platform, a space in which fantasies can be played out often to an unwitting audience. What were called TV personalities are now celebrities, whose every antic fills the pages of newspapers. The likes of savile paved the way for brand and so on. It gives them opportunities for abuse which might not otherwise be granted them

 

[Rob Ray]

I always read the joke as the same. Reeves is the butt of the joke for being a pervy loser. I read the whole show at the time as such. Same as the riffing between them and Ulrika and Mark Lamaar. I may be wrong

I actually think that's an important thing to remember when it comes to judging our own reactions, and those of audiences more generally. We see the world mostly subjectively, and that doesn't stop being true when we talk about our reactions to comedy. My getting the ick at Reeves is based on my personality, experiences and life inputs, it's not necessarily something to be directly compared to you seeing it as him laughing at himself and doesn't automatically mean either of us is a dickhead for having the reactions we do. We all miss stuff, or overthink stuff, or overlay our own prejudices, or put aside our critical hats because we actually want to just switch off and laugh at the funny people.

 

[Wilf]

Here's a clip of Katie Price on Shooting Stars. Sexist, certainly. Sad, equally. There's the lads all joining in as well.. Includes Johnny Vegas who I did wonder about mentioning on this thread. Not I might stress, because I've heard of abuse stories, just feeling uncomfortable about some of his early output (whilst, I must admit, also liking him). In this I'm not trying to just add names of edgy comedians, it's more trying to unpick what's there when you strip away the ironic/self parodying/edgy schtick they might be using. Sometimes it's emperor's new clothes time.

 

[existentialist]

I think there's also something about relative status. It's not so much about whether Lemon or Sykes is an A list-er, neither are I imagine. It's that she's committed to doing stuff like Through the Keyhole, which means sitting there for ages, pretty much trapped there, with Lemon calling the shots. I suspect many modern comedians would have a go at any female actor or personality, however well known, in fact that's exactly what they do. But a genuine A list-er wouldn't be doing these shows or if they do appear on a chat show they do it exactly on their terms. So, suppose I'm saying something very obvious - Melanie Sykes, a well known and successful model and telly person, gets trapped and treated like shit by a misogynist and by the TV 'system'. Gee, misogyny and power again.

Known in the trade as "punching up vs punching down". The latter being not OK.

 

[gosub]

The idea of Sykes being trapped in the studio while Lemon unloaded his misogyny is horrible (assuming it happened as she said and there's no reason to doubt her). Sort of reminds me of how Reeves and Mortimer treated Ulrica Johnson on Shooting Stars. Can't remember whether that was sexualised or 'just' bullying, but was horrible to watch and I pretty quickly stopped doing so. Hard to know whether their treatment of her (particularly by Reeves, iirc) was scripted/she knew that was the role she was playing. Even if that was the case, why the fuck would you set a programme up around treating someone like shit?

As always, there's a debate to be had about comedy, transgression and the rest. Certainly I wouldn't want comedy to become a sanitised 'safe space'. But what a lot of these cases (such as Lemon's) do remind you is that treating someone like shit and adding to misogyny, are just that, nothing else.

Coz it was called shooting stars ...a cicle of he'll for waning celebs

 

[Wilf]

Here's a clip of Katie Price on Shooting Stars. Sexist, certainly. Sad, equally. There's the lads all joining in as well.. Includes Johnny Vegas who I did wonder about mentioning on this thread. Not I might stress, because I've heard of abuse stories, just feeling uncomfortable about some of his early output (whilst, I must admit, also liking him). In this I'm not trying to just add names of edgy comedians, it's more trying to unpick what's there when you strip away the ironic/self parodying/edgy schtick they might be using. Sometimes it's emperor's new clothes time.

Actually, I think the significant bit of this clip isn't what Reeves/Moir does. Yes of course it's puerile and sexist, but a kind of predictable interaction with the 'Jordan' character, even if she's clearly uncomfortable with the whole thing. But the rest of them joining in without drawing breath, feeling they have permission to come out with stuff that Jim Davidson would only have dreamed of getting away with on TV.... that's the worst bit.

 

[Clair De Lune]

David Walliams is a creepy cunt imo.

 

[cesare]

David Walliams is a creepy cunt imo.

Aye for sure. And Matt Lucas.

 

[Dystopiary]

Here's a clip of Katie Price on Shooting Stars. Sexist, certainly. Sad, equally. There's the lads all joining in as well.. Includes Johnny Vegas who I did wonder about mentioning on this thread. Not I might stress, because I've heard of abuse stories, just feeling uncomfortable about some of his early output (whilst, I must admit, also liking him). In this I'm not trying to just add names of edgy comedians, it's more trying to unpick what's there when you strip away the ironic/self parodying/edgy schtick they might be using. Sometimes it's emperor's new clothes time.

There've been allegations about a number of people.

 

[cesare]

I'm interested in who women find ick compared to who men find ick.

 

[two sheds]

I was always slightly repulsed by the trouser rubbing - my mate often had the programme on and I had to leave the room.

Anyway, have we had this? Russell Brand: how the comedy industry uses humour to abuse and silence women

 

[Wilf]

Here's where I parted company with Vegas. I liked his early shambolic self loathing character, but had a few qualms about content. The there was this performance - if you don't want to read it, it's about getting audience members to carry a young woman on stage where he pins her down and, allegedly, assaults here. There's discussion in the piece about the audience's lack of a response and, from his defenders, that she didn't 'complain'. His solicitors were involved and I have a half memory that the woman involved was later tracked down and had 'no complaints' (yuk). There's also discussion in there about where the 'line' is. It's not that long but it is quite graphic.

Suppose I'm posting it and wondering what the reaction would be today. Hopefully a bit different, but I'm not that convinced.

Johnny Vegas at the Bloomsbury theatre*

In stand-up comedy the best jokes often leave an audience feeling uncomfortable. But nothing could have prepared Mary O'Hara for the way Johnny Vegas treated a young woman at a London gig

www.theguardian.com

 

[Elpenor]

Here's where I parted company with Vegas. I liked his early shambolic self loathing character, but had a few qualms about content. The there was this performance - if you don't want to read it, it's about getting audience members to carry a young woman on stage where he pins her down and, allegedly, assaults here. There's discussion in the piece about the audience's lack of a response and, from his defenders, that she didn't 'complain'. His solicitors were involved and I have a half memory that the woman involved was later tracked down and had 'no complaints' (yuk). There's also discussion in there about where the 'line' is. It's not that long but it is quite graphic.

Suppose I'm posting it and wondering what the reaction would be today. Hopefully a bit different, but I'm not that convinced.

Johnny Vegas at the Bloomsbury theatre*

In stand-up comedy the best jokes often leave an audience feeling uncomfortable. But nothing could have prepared Mary O'Hara for the way Johnny Vegas treated a young woman at a London gig

www.theguardian.com

I can do without reading that but I’ve heard Richard Herring interview Vegas before and he always justifies it as that’s “Johnny” a character within him he portrays and not what he’s actually like.

Feels a bit of a thin defence to say the least

Edit - it meaning his onstage act not that specific incident

 

[Dystopiary]

Here's where I parted company with Vegas. I liked his early shambolic self loathing character, but had a few qualms about content. The there was this performance - if you don't want to read it, it's about getting audience members to carry a young woman on stage where he pins her down and, allegedly, assaults here. There's discussion in the piece about the audience's lack of a response and, from his defenders, that she didn't 'complain'. His solicitors were involved and I have a half memory that the woman involved was later tracked down and had 'no complaints' (yuk). There's also discussion in there about where the 'line' is. It's not that long but it is quite graphic.

Suppose I'm posting it and wondering what the reaction would be today. Hopefully a bit different, but I'm not that convinced.

Johnny Vegas at the Bloomsbury theatre*

In stand-up comedy the best jokes often leave an audience feeling uncomfortable. But nothing could have prepared Mary O'Hara for the way Johnny Vegas treated a young woman at a London gig

www.theguardian.com

Yeah, he was suing the Guardian over that but it's still up all these years later.

 

[Wilf]

Feels like I'm promoting a sanitised, victim free, safe kind of comedy in all of this. I'm not, I actually like brands of comedy that are transgressive. It's just a case of which transgressions you choose - predictable sexist/abusive stuff as discussed in the last few pages? That stuff's not really transgressive, it's ultimately the opposite of transgressive, it's repressive. Or do you do something that punches up, that really challenges?

 

[newme]

Here's where I parted company with Vegas. I liked his early shambolic self loathing character, but had a few qualms about content. The there was this performance - if you don't want to read it, it's about getting audience members to carry a young woman on stage where he pins her down and, allegedly, assaults here. There's discussion in the piece about the audience's lack of a response and, from his defenders, that she didn't 'complain'. His solicitors were involved and I have a half memory that the woman involved was later tracked down and had 'no complaints' (yuk). There's also discussion in there about where the 'line' is. It's not that long but it is quite graphic.

Suppose I'm posting it and wondering what the reaction would be today. Hopefully a bit different, but I'm not that convinced.

Johnny Vegas at the Bloomsbury theatre*

In stand-up comedy the best jokes often leave an audience feeling uncomfortable. But nothing could have prepared Mary O'Hara for the way Johnny Vegas treated a young woman at a London gig

www.theguardian.com

What the actual fuck? That's, I don't have words.

 

[Sasaferrato]

What the actual fuck? That's, I don't have words.

'Sexual assault' are the words.

 

[newme]

'Sexual assault' are the words.

Yeh they are. It doesn't seem enough, it never does.