Russell Brand: rape and sexual abuse allegations, grifting and general dodginess - discussion

[Wilf]

It's strange really, I mentioned Vegas and just had a vague feeling of his material being problematic, ramped up by the Shooting Stars clip. I'd actually forgotten the 'performance' discussed in that Guardian report, even though I now remember arguing at length about it in the comments on the piece. From what I remember and I don't remember it very well, there was a lot of pushback along the lines of 'oh, it's only comedy' and 'she didn't complain, in fact she was laughing'. Might add the obvious point, that the guardian comments pages are not quite as guardianista as you might think then or, presumably, now. Anyway, the depressing point I'm getting to is that not much has changed and in fact the pushback would now have more tools in its armoury (accusations of 'woke' for example).

 

[SpookyFrank]

David Walliams is a creepy cunt imo.

David Baddiel turned up at my school last week, plugging his children's books which I never knew he wrote.

Made me start to wonder if there are any popular kids' authors who haven't worn blackface on national television.

 

[Mumbles274]

David Walliams is a creepy cunt imo.

Oh god yeah, he literally scares me

 

[zedr]

the keith lemon bit always felt very homophobic to me. trying to hide behind the sexist bullying by playing camp.

 

[Mumbles274]

The whole.. "they were laughing" defence. I've laughed when in threatening situations. It's called appease and is part of the fight flight response. It's what your brain decides in the split second where we all freeze in the face of threat or danger. Fight flight freeze or appease. But we all freeze for a split second before either continuing to freeze or the others. We don't do it consciously

 

[two sheds]

I don't know most of these people because I've hardly followed comedians on tv over the last few years. I half thought I was losing my sense of humour as I was getting older because they didn't appeal but it was central for me before that (Hancock, Goons, Morcambe, Python, HItchhikers; etc). It's nice to realize that this lot at least just weren't funny

 

[moochedit]

I don't know most of these people because I've hardly followed comedians on tv over the last few years. I half thought I was losing my sense of humour as I was getting older because they didn't appeal but it was central for me before that (Hancock, Goons, Morcambe, Python, HItchhikers; etc). It's nice to realize that this lot at least just weren't funny

I've sure i must have seen brand and vegas on one or more of the "panel shows" like HIGNFY, WILTY, etc on tv but i can't really remember what their comedy acts were like. Never seen their live acts.

 

[two sheds]

yes same, I enjoyed the early HIGNFY but not watched that for ages either.

 

[editor]

Here's a clip of Katie Price on Shooting Stars. Sexist, certainly. Sad, equally. There's the lads all joining in as well.. Includes Johnny Vegas who I did wonder about mentioning on this thread. Not I might stress, because I've heard of abuse stories, just feeling uncomfortable about some of his early output (whilst, I must admit, also liking him). In this I'm not trying to just add names of edgy comedians, it's more trying to unpick what's there when you strip away the ironic/self parodying/edgy schtick they might be using. Sometimes it's emperor's new clothes time.

Fuck, that's grim viewing.

 

[Wilf]

Fuck, that's grim viewing.

Wait till you get to the Vegas story.

 

[editor]

Wait till you get to the Vegas story.

I've just read it and it's even grimmer.

 

[Rob Ray]

Vegas (Michael Pennington) never really owned up to it being an assault, but also acknowledged it as essentially marking the end of his standup career in this interview a few years later. It reads as someone not wanting to admit they did something morally wrong, but kind of knowing.

When I ask if Vegas ever went too far on stage, thinking of the 2008 show where he was criticised for groping a young woman from the audience, Pennington is quick to defend not himself but Vegas (his lawyers complained to the Guardian, which had run a piece written by a woman who was at the gig, saying that the person in question had told them she went along with the joke willingly, and did not feel intimidated). "Suddenly [people were saying] what you've done was wrong, and it came as a real shock to be accused of something like that. Johnny was as needy as me. But he wasn't a woman-hater. He didn't carry resentment towards women that would lead him to do something like that." But that night was, he thinks, "the beginning of the end of doing standup. I think even Johnny was conscious then of what he could do and couldn't."

Johnny Vegas: 'I had no fear of death'

Channelling an 18-stone drunken loudmouth made him a national icon – but endangered his health, his reputation and his family. Michael Pennington tells Emine Saner how he escaped Johnny Vegas

www.theguardian.com

 

[Plumdaff]

I saw Vegas live a few years before that incident and it felt uncomfortable because he was so obviously self destructing and drowning in alcoholism. He was out of control. I'm not excusing what he did, but it must have been obvious to him and people around him it was going to get ugly and maybe it's another indictment of that period of time that he was lauded rather than challenged.

 

[8ball]

Don't know this Keith Lemon person, never watched him. Just as well. It sounds like he's another proper shitbag.

Yeah, never watched his stuff either.
Apparently popular in the before times.

Keith Lemon, I mean.

Keith.
Lemon.

 

[Joe Chi Min]

Fuck, that's grim viewing.

That was the point wasn’t it though

 

[8ball]

Xxxx - Ed no. Etc. Etc. never really owned up to it being an assault, but also acknowledged it as essentially marking the end of his standup career in this interview a few years later. It reads as someone not wanting to admit they did something morally wrong, but kind of knowing.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/sep/24/NONONONONOBO-no-fear-death

No no no no no no.

 

[PTK]

Here's where I parted company with Vegas. I liked his early shambolic self loathing character, but had a few qualms about content. The there was this performance - if you don't want to read it, it's about getting audience members to carry a young woman on stage where he pins her down and, allegedly, assaults here. There's discussion in the piece about the audience's lack of a response and, from his defenders, that she didn't 'complain'. His solicitors were involved and I have a half memory that the woman involved was later tracked down and had 'no complaints' (yuk). There's also discussion in there about where the 'line' is. It's not that long but it is quite graphic.

Suppose I'm posting it and wondering what the reaction would be today. Hopefully a bit different, but I'm not that convinced.

Johnny Vegas at the Bloomsbury theatre*

In stand-up comedy the best jokes often leave an audience feeling uncomfortable. But nothing could have prepared Mary O'Hara for the way Johnny Vegas treated a young woman at a London gig

www.theguardian.com

The actions of Vegas were hideous.

 

[Joe Chi Min]

The whole.. "they were laughing" defence. I've laughed when in threatening situations. It's called appease and is part of the fight flight response. It's what your brain decides in the split second where we all freeze in the face of threat or danger. Fight flight freeze or appease. But we all freeze for a split second before either continuing to freeze or the others. We don't do it consciously

Jordan there made (and lost as it seems) 40+ million with her body and her image as an anything goes type. She ‘consciously’ knew exactly what she was doing when she signed-up for Shooting Stars.

 

[Wilf]

The actions of Vegas were hideous.

Yep and there's no comedy 'defence' anywhere near that. He, literally, uses the audience to set up a sexual assault.

 

[8ball]

So you're just going to ignore all the comments and links you don't like, yes?

Irony is not dead.

 

[Wilf]

Jordan there made (and lost as it seems) 40+ million with her body and her image as an anything goes type. She ‘consciously’ knew exactly what she was doing when she signed-up for Shooting Stars.

What she thought it was about isn't the issue for me. It's about what Reeves and Mortimer did and the other lads enthusiastically pushing it further.

 

[Joe Chi Min]

Let's be fair here.

Keith Lemon/Leigh Francis has never been accused of being a glassy eyed abuser of women.

We're accusing him of being an over the top "nudge nudge wink wink" purveyor of OTT humor to get a reacion. There's at least one of those in every pub.

He knows what he is doing and almost stays on the right side of innuendo and stuff. Most of the time.

(this is nott a disclaimer or a defence of the man, but he's not been accused of Brand style issues, unless I've missed womething)

His catchprase was ‘I’m gonna kick your back door in’ you fucking blert

 

[Joe Chi Min]

What she thought it was about isn't the issue for me. It's about what Reeves and Mortimer did and the other lads enthusiastically pushing it further.

I never liked those bits either, not one bit. But (imo and) from what I’ve seen of her, Jordan seems uncomfortable because she is quite an awkward and humourless person.

Eta: yeah they all did seem to pile-on on her there which was something that never happened before.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Here's where I parted company with Vegas. I liked his early shambolic self loathing character, but had a few qualms about content. The there was this performance - if you don't want to read it, it's about getting audience members to carry a young woman on stage where he pins her down and, allegedly, assaults here. There's discussion in the piece about the audience's lack of a response and, from his defenders, that she didn't 'complain'. His solicitors were involved and I have a half memory that the woman involved was later tracked down and had 'no complaints' (yuk). There's also discussion in there about where the 'line' is. It's not that long but it is quite graphic.

Suppose I'm posting it and wondering what the reaction would be today. Hopefully a bit different, but I'm not that convinced.

Johnny Vegas at the Bloomsbury theatre*

In stand-up comedy the best jokes often leave an audience feeling uncomfortable. But nothing could have prepared Mary O'Hara for the way Johnny Vegas treated a young woman at a London gig

www.theguardian.com

Fucking hell, that's horrific.

 

[andysays]

Jordan there made (and lost as it seems) 40+ million with her body and her image as an anything goes type. She ‘consciously’ knew exactly what she was doing when she signed-up for Shooting Stars.

It sounds to me like you're trying to justify this on some quite spurious basis, which is unfortunately similar to the stuff you came out with recently criticizing some woman with dodgy opinions because she had previously been a glamour model (I can't remember the full details)

It's not a great look Joe, and it suggests you haven't thought in the slightest about why you were widely criticized for the previous stuff.

 

[Epona]

Jordan there made (and lost as it seems) 40+ million with her body and her image as an anything goes type. She ‘consciously’ knew exactly what she was doing when she signed-up for Shooting Stars.

This looks to me like you are going for a "she asked for it" position.
Is that actually what you want to be doing, or would you like to take a step back from that?

 

[Flavour]

Jordan there made (and lost as it seems) 40+ million with her body and her image as an anything goes type. She ‘consciously’ knew exactly what she was doing when she signed-up for Shooting Stars.

I'm not as nice as Epona and I've seen you do this schtick several times. You have serious problems, and posting on urban is not helping you to solve those problems, nor is it pleasant for other posters to have to read.

There is a nicer version of you, who doesn't say this basic, angry, incel bollocks all the time, somewhere inside you. Find him. Or fuck off.

 

[Dom Traynor]

David Baddiel turned up at my school last week, plugging his children's books which I never knew he wrote.

Made me start to wonder if there are any popular kids' authors who haven't worn blackface on national television.

I guarantee that SWP guy who does poetry for kids hasn't, can't remember his name now. Lovely bloke.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

She ‘consciously’ knew exactly what she was doing when she signed-up for Shooting Stars.

And women consciously know that they will probably get cat called and hassled every time they go out. So they shouldn't complain about it if they make the decision to leave their homes.

Right?

 

[emanymton]

I guarantee that SWP guy who does poetry for kids hasn't, can't remember his name now. Lovely bloke.

Michael Rosen?