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Russell Brand on Revolution

Put yer cards on the table. Let's have it. Where exactly are you going with this in relation to Brand (and/or celebrity figureheads in general)?
OK, fair enough. I only brought up Ricky Tomlinson because he was another celebrity comedian who endorsed worthy causes (and had just come up in the papers) to make the point that some of you here were raking up Brand's past and using it against him while (quite rightly) absolving Tomlinson of his. ie that double standards seemed to be being applied.
 
OK, fair enough. I only brought up Ricky Tomlinson because he was another celebrity comedian who endorsed worthy causes (and had just come up in the papers) to make the point that some of you here were raking up Brand's past and using it against him while (quite rightly) absolving Tomlinson of his. ie that double standards seemed to be being applied.
you seem to be applying them yourself here.
 
OK, fair enough. I only brought up Ricky Tomlinson because he was another celebrity comedian who endorsed worthy causes (and had just come up in the papers) to make the point that some of you here were raking up Brand's past and using it against him while (quite rightly) absolving Tomlinson of his. ie that double standards seemed to be being applied.

Okay.

Leaving aside for a moment that I personally haven't been using Brand's past as the basis for my criticisms...

...there are two or three fairly substantial differences between Brand and Tomlinson.

1) Tomlinson (afaik) isn't putting himself, or being put by others, into the same figurehead role that Brand is.

2) Tomlinson was a longstanding political activist before he became a celebrity.

3) Tomlinson has been backing an established current (and notably an established Party) that has it's own roots, traditions, boundaries, structures etc etc. Unlike Brand, who is "leading" a much more malleable , and in many ways weaker or more vulnerable to "hijack" movement.

I'm no fan of the SLP (or the politics they represent) but it's a very different role Tomlinson is playing there. The criticisms needed are equally different. It's not (IMO) a particularly useful comparison.
 
Right about that quote about Brands ideal type of Revolution being modelled on the Spanish revolution, how far would his mystic hippy dippy woo woo non violent philosophy gotten when Frankie, Adolph and Benni sent in the Panzers? A furious letter to the Catholic Worker reminding those at the back not to throw bricks,no doubt.
 
Right about that quote about Brands ideal type of Revolution being modelled on the Spanish revolution, how far would his mystic hippy dippy woo woo non violent philosophy gotten when Frankie, Adolph and Benni sent in the Panzers? A furious letter to the Catholic Worker reminding those at the back not to throw bricks,no doubt.
i don't think it would be a furious letter, more a liberal moaning woe is me oh dear i'm dead letter
 
Okay.

Leaving aside for a moment that I personally haven't been using Brand's past as the basis for my criticisms...
I know that your general point is that any celebrity endorsement is counter-productive for grass-roots struggles (personally I don't think it makes much difference either way but I agree with you that those directly involved in such struggles should reject all leaders and would-be leaders)

...there are two or three fairly substantial differences between Brand and Tomlinson.
I hold no brief for Brand but in the interests of fairness:

1) Tomlinson (afaik) isn't putting himself, or being put by others, into the same figurehead role that Brand is.
I suggest that in participating in SLP election broadcasts he is using his celebrity position to endorse a political point of view.

2) Tomlinson was a longstanding political activist before he became a celebrity.
Wasn't Brand always a bit of a hippy protestor even when he was on drugs and wasn't famous? [needs to be checked, as they say on wikipedia]

3) Tomlinson has been backing an established current (and notably an established Party) that has it's own roots, traditions, boundaries, structures etc etc. Unlike Brand, who is "leading" a much more malleable , and in many ways weaker or more vulnerable to "hijack" movement.
Maybe, but it could be argued that a freelance celebrity would be less dangerous than one committed to a particular party (eg Vanessa Redgrave and the WRP)?

I'm no fan of the SLP (or the politics they represent) but it's a very different role Tomlinson is playing there. The criticisms needed are equally different. It's not (IMO) a particularly useful comparison.
Your position on Tomlinson ought logically be: He's a Celebrity, Get Him Out of Here.
 
Actually, Brand addresses this point in his book:
So, at least he's not a member of Russian Revolution Re-enactment Society.

I think he's using the word to make the point that what is required to get a society in which the resources of the world will be used to meet the needs of the people of the world is the complete ending of the capitalist system of elite control and production for profit. This would make the day-to-day struggles of people to survive within the system (necessary and inevitable as they are as long as the system lasts) a thing of the past. People wouldn't need to do this to try to get even their basic needs satisfied.

I think I've just figured Brand out from that quote.

Brand's a hippy peace and love idealist.

Thing is, I reckon all revolutionaries would love it if they could have a peaceful revolution. The problem comes when those entrenched in power decide not to go peacefully.
 
I think I've just figured Brand out from that quote.

Brand's a hippy peace and love idealist.

Thing is, I reckon all revolutionaries would love it if they could have a peaceful revolution. The problem comes when those entrenched in power decide not to go peacefully.

And when others smell opportunity and decide to step into the vacuum. And from the acts of other nations. And disagreements between the revolutionaries. And when those who decide to 'surrender peacefully' later change their mind or become the focus for counter-revolutionary sentiments.

Not all revolutionaries would love it if they could have a peaceful revolution, not least because of these obvious flaws, but also because many forms of revolution consider it necessary to eliminate some of the old guard in rather bloody ways.

I certainly wouldn't consider myself a revolutionary unless the proposed revolution had some bloody good answers to these and other issues. Whether or not we 'need' leaders and charismatic individuals to issue rallying cries, we certainly need a load of bloody good ideas. Wake me when they come.
 
I mean really, here we are with the internet and we rarely even get the equivalent of the sort of stuff FE Smith was pondering in 1930.

Television would make it feasible to revive the direct democracy of ancient Greek city-states, with the whole population, rather than elected representatives, able to vote on issues. Political leaders would make their case direct to the public. Communication speed would allow votes to be concluded within 20 minutes.

People would be better informed as advances in psychology, widely taught in schools, would leave them "immune from specious appeals to sentiment and illogical reasoning".

Smith thought it unlikely the party system would survive in this climate and felt that by 2030 people would be more content with the idea of "rule of experts".

Perhaps people don't want to go there for fear of letting some genie political force out of the bottle. Perhaps it will get out of the bottle anyway due to the inability of existing systems to manage, and a spurt of obvious ideas will then splash over our view.
 
Although Im reasonably sure that most who've ever tried to moderate an internet forum will rightly groan at some of my hints at the potential of the net.

But hey that would be a start, to look at what we can learn about power and human relations from the attempts so far at virtual communities of one kind or another.
 
Mind you, no matter how many reasons there are to shake our heads at things on the net, its got a way to go before it accrues the same amount of baggage as 'last centuries ideas' (sorry for the crap shorthand).

Cynical and bruised as many of us are, there is likely nothing Brand can say right now thats going to make 'the difference', even if he had a clue. If necessity is the mother of invention, then we are stuck waiting for an excruciatingly long labour to end. I don't think the video I posted earlier in the thread where manic Brand somewhat recklessly hoisted a pregnant interviewer into his arms and walked around was enough to induce labour.
 
The description you gave of it means I haven't read it yet, because I'd rather rant about other net stuff than the purely media and propaganda angles.

Like if we wish to remain wedded to the concept of the head of state in our brave new world, why not replace them with an app. An app like chat roulette or whatever it was called. A random monarch for 30 seconds at a time.

Hey if Brand gets sick, I'm available. I've got ideas man.
 
Paine wasn't "working class", he was the son of a skilled artisan and guild member, and became an excise agent - a position that required education and the ability to finance your own housing and transport. He had already written (and re-written) his pamphlet before he ever set foot on the boat to America, and it was as widely circulated here as was possible for something banned from publication, and circulated among workers and free-thinkers via Correspondence Societies etc". I suspect you're mistaking the official publication date - i.e. when it was officially published in the US - with when it was first disseminated, which was IIRC about 1772.
Britain had already had a revolution a century and a quarter before that in America, but like that in America it was a bourgeois revolution - the middle classes rebelling against the rights and demands of kings, and ended up re-establishing many of the same tyrannies it purported to end.
Paine wasn't "run off by a mob", he was "run off" by a legal system loaded in favour of the state that could bring broad charges (usually of sedition/seditious libel) on little or no evidence, at a time when the death penalty was as common here as it is in the USA currently. He went to France and did more fine work.

To compare Tom Paine to Russell Brand is to insult Paine and to elevate Brand to a position he hasn't earned.

Your facts are skewed.

Paine wasn't "working class", he was the son of a skilled artisan and guild member, and became an excise agent - a position that required education and the ability to finance your own housing and transport.

1. Paine was working class if "working class" means working for a living, as opposed to the privileged upper classes.
2. Paine's life in England was marked by repeated failures. He was fired from his job as a an excise tax man, took over his wife's business, went bankrupt, almost ended up in debtors prison.
3. He couldn't afford his own housing, lived with friends and with his wife's family. Why do you think he wrote "The Case of the Officers of Excise" to petition for a pay raise? (the petition ultimately brought him to the attention of Benjamin Franklin, who invited him to come to America and became his benefactor).
4. He had a marginal education, went to Quaker schools until he was 13, couldn't advance beyond that because Quakers where not permitted higher education.

He had already written (and re-written) his pamphlet before he ever set foot on the boat to America... I suspect you're mistaking the official publication date - i.e. when it was officially published in the US - with when it was first disseminated, which was IIRC about 1772.

Wrong.

He didn't begin to write "Common Sense" until late 1775 (published in January 1776), a year after he arrived from England. He wrote it on the urging of Dr. Benjamin Rush, after he came to Rush's attention, when as editor of the Philadelphia Magazine Paine wrote his scathing condemnation of the slave trade, called "African Slavery in America." This brought him into the inner circle of revolutionaries (Samuel and John Adams, among them) who were abolitionists and had pressed for independence. The idea of independence failed to gain traction against the loyalists in the Continental Congress until Paine's pamphlet opened public debate and forced the issue upon them.

Paine wasn't "run off by a mob", he was "run off" by a legal system loaded in favour of the state that could bring broad charges (usually of sedition/seditious libel) on little or no evidence, at a time when the death penalty was as common here as it is in the USA currently. He went to France and did more fine work.

Wrong again.

He was most definitely run off by a mob (after his indictment for treason). They chased him all the way to the docks, where he escaped across the channel. Upon his arrival in France he was greeted by cheering crowds and met by the Mayor of Paris.

The point being, while America and France enthusiastically embraced Paine's revolution against the monarchy, Britain remained loyal to their monarch, and still does to this day.

Talk about being behind the times!

To compare Tom Paine to Russell Brand is to insult Paine and to elevate Brand to a position he hasn't earned.

History will only tell if Brand matches up to Paine, whose achievements were nothing less than extraordinary (with the notable exception of England where he failed to mount a revolution against the monarchy). In the meantime, some comparisons between Paine and Brand are accurate in that both have called for "Revolution," both express ideas in the popular vernacular, both use irreverent humor, both use a medium accessible to all (Paine used pamphlets, Brand uses the Internet), both are reviled for speaking truth to power. If you read the dirt leveled against Thomas Paine the similarities are remarkable. "He's a drunk, he doesn't wash, he stinks, he's uneducated." And most notable of all -- "he fucked a cat..." (I kid you not, they said it about Paine and they say the exact same thing about Brand).

That said, Thomas Paine has been almost completely erased from American history because he's still a threat to the powers-that-be. If Brand can revive some of his ideas and encourage public debate, as he seems to be trying to do, I fully support his efforts and only hope he succeeds.
 
The point being, while America and France enthusiastically embraced Paine's revolution against the monarchy, Britain remained loyal to their monarch, and still does to this day.

Liked your post as I respect your effort at argument rather than just posting the 'Trews' or whatever.

Anecdotally I don't think I've ever heard anyone I've spoken to have a good word to say about the monarchy. The ruling class control the media narrative, the right wing press love them. They are a powerful instistution in a small class dominated country. Its perhaps slightly more strict and blatant than America, but you also have people who can't afford healthcare and so on. And a massive prison population. And the death penalty.
 
vanguardism at it's grimmest.

Philosophical ideas and critical thinking is very rarely seen to permeate down to these depths of society. Here, people tend to simply consume the popular narrative espoused by the media and care not to think any different. Never have these individuals developed an interest in the actual state of affairs due to the repulsive elitist nature of mainstream party politics.

fucking scum, I think the elitist mainstream parties are not as much of an issue as the elitism displayed in this paragraph particularly.

On the amusing side of the crapness of that article is what the author says about how great it is that revolution is stocked in asda, when I see that as an outcropping of the phenomena of capitalism - what's the word - incorporating everything into itself as a conduit of profit, I see it as a neutralisation of any potential message - asda wouldn't stock it if it was really incendiary, so it must not be in order to get on their shelves, and once you've compromised the message (not sure RB has needed to, as his views might well be liberal enough not to be of concern anyway, I haven't read the book, not interested) then you've lost it really. I just don't see part of a strategy of the destruction of capitalism being borne from tactics that push consumerism, since I would see consumerism ending with capitalism, and the internet is a far, far better way of disseminating information than books anyway.
 
If only they went to the falafel shop instead of Nando's... *sighs wistfully at what could be if only the sheeple would wake up*
 
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