Russell Brand on Revolution

[ViolentPanda]

On the contrary! As Diana has herself pointed out, the Americans have a unique ability to understand the situation which we poor little Britons are unfortunately not capable of. Nor will we ever be, shameless monarchists that we are. Let's think about that now!! Instead of talking about Russell Brand, let's talk about the Queen, as Diana has demanded, and the Queen's wealth. Ah, if only we could face up to our internal contradictions and find a solution! May we forever be thankful for the Americans, natural leaders and torch bearers for a better form of democracy! Lead us, oh Americans! Impart upon us your wisdom of advanced democracy! Imbue us with the spirt of Boston in 1775, the most revolutionary of all revolutionary situations!!! Not, as some idiot urban gibberish-merchants would have it, a revolt by rich white men against other rich white men to protect the wealth of the aforementioned rich white men in a faraway land where wealth was in large part generated by slavery. No. The other America. The beacon. The path-finder, if you will. Not the missile, I mean. Sort of in a biblical sense. Like Russell Brand.

So basically, what we need to do is to read the works of Thomas Paine, the political thinker and activist who did more to inspire the bourgeoisie of the colonial US to rebel than any other activist of the time?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Everyone seems to be missing the point in my opinion. It means fuck all that he doesn't live like Mother Theresa. It means fuck all that he is famous. It means a lot that he is a loonspud conspiracy theorist destined to be the useful idiot of people more powerful than him. Whatever short-term victories result from his involvement in campaigns, the long-term impact will be the discrediting of anything he touches.

I mentioned that possibility about 90 pages ago, comrade.

 

[FNG]

^^
one that wasnts to introduce gentrification by the backdoor ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

And how does Brand suggest we avoid repeating such a 'hegemonic exchange' come that glorious new dawn?

He doesn't.
My personal suggestion is "cull the ruling classes and the bourgeoisie. Let their G-d sort them out".

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not a fucking Leninist you mug.

There are no Leninists here, that I know of, so I believe that in this case "Leninists" is meant in the perjorative sense that Speebies give it - i.e. "filthy deviationist swine".

 

[treelover]

Drawn in initially by the importance and ubiquity of the cause, housing is the issue of our time, I was compelled to stay, as if held by the heart, by a deeper issue, both social and personal. By something I didn’t even know I was grieving; the loss of community, our connection to each other.

I like this part of Brands account of how he got involved in N/Era campaign.

 

[cesare]

I like this part of Brands account of how he got involved in N/Era campaign.

Sounds like a load of trite wank to me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I didn't. You inferred it because you have a different, wider definition of "racist" than me. Or unless you think Poles and East Europeans generally are a "race". Which would be worse.

Ah, so it's not an issue of your representation, it's an issue of my misunderstanding your representation because I'm not as enlightened as you are.
Spoken like a true dogmatist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But that was the "spin" I was prepared to give it. It is saying "no jobs to people from outside Britain". Which is what I was objecting to (as anti-internationalist). Migrants from Eastern Europe are basically fellow workers seeking a better life just as migrants from Britain to the US, Australia and Canada or wherever are.

The internationalism you enunciate above is more about the rights of the boss class to exploit the international working class, than the rights of the international working class to "seek a better life". You're effectively saying "the boss class trawling for particularly-qualified workers in Poland, whom they can underpay with regard to the local UK pay rate, is fine, because it facilitates the ability of some members of the international working class to seek a better life".
With internationalist friends like you, the international working class don't need any enemies!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I need a bit more convincing about Dolphin TBH, they were set up as a charitable trust after selling their previous holdings to Westbrook, but as their usp is providing affordable housing their application criteria of a joint income of 30,000k seems steep to me it would price most single parents out of the market and a sizeable number of couples too unless both were holding down full time jobs, obviously this doesn't apply to existing new era tennants, but my inner sceptic says its all a bit too cosy.

Sure, I agree that it is "too cosy", but it does mean that the existing New Era tenants will derive some benefit from a more secure tenancy.
As for the whole "affordable housing" farrago, this appears to be a strategy to ensure that new tenants are in work (although frankly with job instability as it is, it's pretty hard to guarantee that you'll never have to claim HB, especially because of rental prices in the SE being fucked).

 

[ViolentPanda]

It would price me and my partner out and we both do have fulltime jobs. what kind of affordable housing provider demands a minimum income?

I suspect, one that's attempting to ensure its' revenue stream.

 

[ViolentPanda]

^^
one that wasnts to introduce gentrification by the backdoor ?

TBF gentrification is inescapable - the only thing that can be done is to slow it, so that damage is minimalised - and frankly London (all of London) is already fucked as far as creeping gentrification is concerned.
"Back in the day" it used to take 20-30 years for an area in London to reach "critical mass" in terms of gentrification. Areas like Battersea, that were majority working class, with several "islands" of middle-class Professional occupation, took from the early '70s to the mid-'90s to become mainstream "middle class" areas, but that transition time is shortening, sometimes compressing into less than a decade a process that took 2 or 3 decades, and was still socially-harmful to the "indigenous" population. How much more harm is this speeded-up version of gentrification doing?

I'm not sure whether Dolphin is doing something that will introduce gentrification by the backdoor, but I think it's entirely possible that the attempts at providing affordable housing while imposing a minimum income requirement will have the effect of filtering prospective tenants, and introducing a "monoculture" of skilled working class and lower middle class residents to Dolphin's housing.

 

[Pickman's model]

I suspect, one that's attempting to ensure its' revenue stream.

one that seeks to prevent the residents coming together again and receiving favourable publicity

 

[ViolentPanda]

one that seeks to prevent the residents coming together again and receiving favourable publicity

Entirely possible.

 

[FNG]

TBF gentrification is inescapable - the only thing that can be done is to slow it, so that damage is minimalised - and frankly London (all of London) is already fucked as far as creeping gentrification is concerned.
"Back in the day" it used to take 20-30 years for an area in London to reach "critical mass" in terms of gentrification. Areas like Battersea, that were majority working class, with several "islands" of middle-class Professional occupation, took from the early '70s to the mid-'90s to become mainstream "middle class" areas, but that transition time is shortening, sometimes compressing into less than a decade a process that took 2 or 3 decades, and was still socially-harmful to the "indigenous" population. How much more harm is this speeded-up version of gentrification doing?

I'm not sure whether Dolphin is doing something that will introduce gentrification by the backdoor, but I think it's entirely possible that the attempts at providing affordable housing while imposing a minimum income requirement will have the effect of filtering prospective tenants, and introducing a "monoculture" of skilled working class and lower middle class residents to Dolphin's housing.

whilst further driving the wedge between skilled and unskilled labour.
By setting an entry threshold that excludes those most in need of affordable shelter,there is shades of the victorian concept of deserving and undeserving poor in their selection criteria

 

[ViolentPanda]

whilst further driving the wedge between skilled and unskilled labour.
By setting an entry threshold that excludes those most in need of affordable shelter,there is shades of the victorian concept of deserving and undeserving poor in their selection criteria

Well, that does tend to be the primary effect of this shift in language that residualises social housing and holds up "affordable housing" as an acceptable substitute.

 

[campanula]

I disagree. People from anywhere and everywhere in the world are welcome to contribute to these forums. Anyone here is free to discuss events, politics and people in the UK, the US or Timbuktu if they want to, and we should be grown up enough to listen to everyone's point of view and make some kind of decent response, not just tell people to go away based on their nationality, or whether they live in Hoxton, Cambridge or California.

Yes, you are right - it is unforgivable and I apologise. However, I am myself hugely irritated by Diana's refusal to actually engage with many salient posts. I admit to utter bias as I do not and never have cared for RB...but this is largely irrelevant - it is what he is part of - - a commodified celebrity in sly complicity with a voracious media - and these power relations are not addressed.

 

[Zabo]

This raises a relevant question for those who think that revolution will emerge from day-to-day grass-roots struggles under capitalism.

Not on this decrepit lump of rock it won't. Most of the struggles consist of getting the right angle for a so called 'selfie on a stick'.

A pretend revolution may happen on such forums as this where people nit pick every word and utterance and thus end up totally incapable of having enough strength to get up and go for a piss let alone be part of a revolution.

Sorry to disappoint you Jean-Luc. You will achieve more by tying your hands behind your back, inserting a fine needle in your mouth and picking the seeds out of a mega sized pomegranate.

Have a great and idealistic New Year.

 

[Diana9]

On the contrary! As Diana has herself pointed out, the Americans have a unique ability to understand the situation which we poor little Britons are unfortunately not capable of. Nor will we ever be, shameless monarchists that we are. Let's think about that now!! Instead of talking about Russell Brand, let's talk about the Queen, as Diana has demanded, and the Queen's wealth. Ah, if only we could face up to our internal contradictions and find a solution! May we forever be thankful for the Americans, natural leaders and torch bearers for a better form of democracy! Lead us, oh Americans! Impart upon us your wisdom of advanced democracy! Imbue us with the spirt of Boston in 1775, the most revolutionary of all revolutionary situations!!! Not, as some idiot urban gibberish-merchants would have it, a revolt by rich white men against other rich white men to protect the wealth of the aforementioned rich white men in a faraway land where wealth was in large part generated by slavery. No. The other America. The beacon. The path-finder, if you will. Not the missile, I mean. Sort of in a biblical sense. Like Russell Brand.

Aside from the sarcasm, most of what you wrote is actually historically accurate.

The one part you've missed, however, is that the "natural leader and torch bearer for a better form of democracy," wasn't an "American" at all. The real pathfinder, as I'm sure you know, was an Englishman (you should be proud). While the rich white men in the Continental Congress were sending Olive Branch petitions to make nice with the King, a penniless working class bloke fresh off the boat from England named Thomas Paine was writing the pamphlet that would become the clarion call for independence from the British Empire -- the same Thomas Paine who tried to bring the revolution against the monarchy to England, only to be condemned to death and run off by a mob. Two hundred years later, Russell Brand is being reviled by many of his own countrymen for resounding the call for revolution much as Paine was then. If you don't see the irony perhaps you're too close to the problem to get the full picture.

 

[Diana9]

You're never going to make friends here with that kind of attitude towards our beloved head of state. She opens kids homes and charity hospitals and stuff - you're just jealous cos she does more good than you and her wealth is just an excuse to attack her. I know you yanks are jealous of our glorious incorruptible monarchy but you don't need to show it quite that much.

I'm not here to make friends.

When people complain ad nauseum about Russell Brand's bank account ("how much is he worth," "who is he to stand up with regular people, he's not one of us, he's a rich celebrity!"), it's only fair to point out that the Queen you so love is a bigger celebrity than Brand and 44 billion richer. Furthermore, you resent Brand because he earned his wealth, while you accept without question that the Queen's wealth is inherited and that she is the biggest welfare recipient of the people's tax money. You have been so profoundly indoctrinated by the oligarchs who have ruled over your country for hundreds of years that you don't even know the depth of your subjugation, and you project this onto anyone who, like Russell Brand, a commoner from a working class family like yourself, has the temerity to think people deserve better. Those who rule over you want you to feel inferior to hold you in check and to do their social policing for them. Their pomp and self-importance conspires to prevent you from thinking you deserve better for yourself, lest you rise up against your oppressors, and you'll only attack and vilify those who try to liberate your mind from oppression. Thomas Paine tried over two-hundred years ago, Russell Brand is trying now, only to receive the same hateful vilification from his countrymen.

"John Lydon, erstwhile of the Sex Pistols, once said of his state education that it seemed to primarily be the installation of a belief system that placed his generation and class at the bottom of an immovable hierarchal structure." - Russell Brand on parliament: 'The whole joint is a deeply encoded temple of hegemonic power"

It's very odd, and yet strangely fascinating to observe this from an American vantage point.

 

[CNT36]

I'm not here to make friends.

When people complain ad nauseum about Russell Brand's bank account ("how much is he worth," "who is he to stand up with regular people, he's not one of us, he's a rich celebrity!"), it's only fair to point out that the Queen you so love is a bigger celebrity than Brand and 44 billion richer. Furthermore, you resent Brand because he earned his wealth, while you accept without question that the Queen's wealth is inherited and that she is the biggest welfare recipient of the people's tax money. You have been so profoundly indoctrinated by the oligarchs who have ruled over your country for hundreds of years that you don't even know the depth of your subjugation, and you project this onto anyone who, like Russell Brand, a commoner from a working class family like yourself, has the temerity to think people deserve better. Those who rule over you want you to feel inferior to hold you in check and to do their social policing for them. Their pomp and self-importance conspires to prevent you from thinking you deserve better for yourself, lest you rise up against your oppressors, and you'll only attack and vilify those who try to liberate your mind from oppression. Thomas Paine tried over two-hundred years ago, Russell Brand is trying now, only to receive the same hateful vilification from his countrymen.

"John Lydon, erstwhile of the Sex Pistols, once said of his state education that it seemed to primarily be the installation of a belief system that placed his generation and class at the bottom of an immovable hierarchal structure." - Russell Brand on parliament: 'The whole joint is a deeply encoded temple of hegemonic power"

It's very odd, and yet strangely fascinating to observe this from an American vantage point.

Thanks for that. I think everyone here will have a long think after reading that. Perhaps some will even revise their image of the Queen as a kindly grandmother. Now I think about I've never seen her on a demo or anything. Ever feel like you've been cheated?

 

[Diana9]

Thanks for that. I think everyone here will have a long think after reading that. Perhaps some will even revise their image of the Queen as a kindly grandmother. Now I think about I've never seen her on a demo or anything. Ever feel like you've been cheated?

I have nothing personally against the Queen, or her family. I'm sure they're all very nice people. They try to do the best they can within the paradigm they were born into. They try to help with charity work (though much of that is PR), and I believe they sincerely devote themselves to fulfilling their duty. The problem isn't personal, it's the system. A system that holds people down.

You asked, "ever feel like you've been cheated?" Have we ever! We were cheated when the bankers and slave owners in patriot's clothing hijacked the Revolution from the good people who fought for it, to serve the rich elite. It took almost a century to rid ourselves of slavery, and it took a bloody war to do it. It took even longer to finally get the Civil Rights Act passed, unemployment benefits, minimum wage, and social security for the elderly. But the corporate oligarchs still rule this nation and we have yet to liberate ourselves from them.

Time for a change. How to go about it is the big question. I believe Russell Brand has the right idea, "Creative, local, direct action is the answer." It's a good place to start.

 

[chilango]

This is great stuff

 

[Jean-Luc]

The internationalism you enunciate above is more about the rights of the boss class to exploit the international working class, than the rights of the international working class to "seek a better life". You're effectively saying "the boss class trawling for particularly-qualified workers in Poland, whom they can underpay with regard to the local UK pay rate, is fine, because it facilitates the ability of some members of the international working class to seek a better life".
With internationalist friends like you, the international working class don't need any enemies!

That's not what I was saying of course. I was questioning the legitimacy of the slogan "British jobs for people already in Britain". It seemed to me to a bit dubious. It's not "racist" (since there are people of all "races" already in Britain) and it's not as bad as "British jobs for British workers" (since there are already non-British workers in Britain) but it seems to me that there is still something wrong with it. It is certainly not internationalist. If employers are doing what you say then the way to deal with it would be international trade union action between trade unions in Britain and Poland.

To tell the truth, I'm genuinely surprised that the current anti-immigration hysteria seems to have affected some people here and with your lack of sympathy with fellow workers from other parts of the world seeking a better life. After all, there are millions of workers in Britain who are the descendants of people who came from Ireland, the West Indies and the Indian subcontinent who came here for that reason, some of them recruited directly from abroad.

Anyway, this is veering off topic and should probably be the subject of a separate thread.

 

[J Ed]

Would the separate thread be titled 'Stuff I reckon and make up that means the opposite of what people actually say'?

 

[Orang Utan]

Oh wow, an American slacktivist has come on a UK board and compared Russell Brand to Thomas Paine.
I have completed the internet.

 

[JimW]

Did Tom Paine ever write letters bragging about sleeping with someone's granddaughter though?

 

[brogdale]

Did Tom Paine ever write letters bragging about sleeping with someone's granddaughter though?

Don't think so, but some of those goth routines he did about Chavs with Noel Fielding were hilarious. Ahead of his time.

 

[Orang Utan]

Did Tom Paine ever write letters bragging about sleeping with someone's granddaughter though?

He kept sending slanderous pigeons to Burke

 

[Jean-Luc]

And how does Brand suggest we avoid repeating such a 'hegemonic exchange' come that glorious new dawn?

Here, for what it's worth, is how he opens chapter 31 of his book

Of the succesful revolutions we've thus far discussed, the one we ought most to emulate is the Spanish Revolution. One thing we don't want to do is replace one ruling class with another; we want power to be shared, not concentrated, and the role of the diminished state to be administrative and responsible. The means by which we achieve this, too, is important. Perhaps there is a corollary between the violence that brings about Revolution and the corruption that tends to follow.