Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[butchersapron]

A hesitant post - hesitant not out of some sort of cowardice on a difficult issue, but because my own thoughts are not clearly or unambiguous.

A hesitant post - hesitant not out of some sort of cowardice on a difficult issue, but because my own thoughts are not clear or unambiguous:

As virtually everyone has said, this is about class and gender. It's about the truly gruesome attitudes and working practices of public bodies that felt able to avoid doing the very thing they were supposed to be doing for several decades - look out for those kids. It's vile, it's the very worst of what local government is/was (and the police) and it involved a sickening degree of victim blaming. All of that dwarfs issues about 'culture', religion or anything else. And the reasons it dwarfs all that is that the vast majority of Muslim or Asian men would have been just horrified as everyone else by what went on.

Is that end of story? Well, maybe there's 2 sets of facts that still need to be kept in view. I won't dig out the links but around 90% of child sex offenders are white ( a slight over representation of white men). However there is also an overrepresentation of Asian men in grooming/collective sex offences against children (without getting into the fact that not all the studies are working with very good data). Seems to me, if you want to make some kind of realistic assessment of the offence, that's the starting point. Recognising that abuse is overwhelmingly about class and gender and carried out by white men - but that collective abuse sees an over representation of Asian men. In getting into that, 'gang' seems like a good starting point, thinking about communities, lack of integration, rather than generalisations about 'race'. That's not 'grooming happens because of racism', it's more about asking how do specific sets of blokes get to the point in there lives where they are willing to rape children and teenagers. It's about examining a crime and social phenomena the way you would with any other. Fwiw, I wouldn't shy away from keeping religious attitudes in the mix there, just as much as I wouldn't when looking at, say Christianity and domestic violence. But - and it would have been quicker to just say this - it's simply not a form of abuse that's defined by ethnicity or religion.

Look how easy it is.Ta.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What is British Muslim culture? Given that Muslims in the UK have their roots in countries such as Nigeria, Turkey and Bangladesh and the diversity in religious practice and culture between Sunnis and Shias and all the sects within those two broad branches, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as British Muslim culture.

Would have been more accurate to have used the word cultures plural. While acknowledging the fuzzy edges, commonalities and overlaps that will exist between them. You're right that any consideration of cultures is going to be complicated and nuanced. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

 

[The39thStep]

I don't give a fuck who you're speaking to, you're backing up what I'm saying and I'll thank who I like.

The only time I'd back you up is over a cliff gobshite

 

[The39thStep]

You'll never go far wrong being wary of any fucker who styles himself 'community leader'.

Problem is the Labour party's relationship with them is that theyll bring out the votes. Look what happened in Machester when a young woman councillor who was Muslim attacked the conservatism of the community leaders. She was ousted within three months by Labour. Sarah Champion was another victim of not wanting to offend community leaders.

 

[Pickman's model]

Go away, silly boy, you had your chance & blew it.

yeh yeh

You're as honest as you ever were, which is to say not at all. If you gave a fuck about the abused girls you hide it well, and if you cared about countering the fascist narrative you wouldn't regurgitate that guff about backward ideologies so reminiscent of Golding, Robinson etc

 

[pk]

And you've objectively determined what those motivations were by what methodology exactly?

That aside, how does your acceptance of these doubtless highly scientific findings help anyone? Are there victims whose burdens have been lifted by the news of your acceptance of some made up reasons why they suffered as they did? Do you have quotes from them too?

Motivations that have been seen in other areas of similarly inspired extremism. Such as with ISIS and the Yazidi women.
Yazidi Victim of ISIS: ‘I Was Gang-Raped, They Call This Practice Sexual Jihad’

 

[pk]

The only time I'd back you up is over a cliff gobshite

Of course you would LOL yet you'll never quite know why.
Another lemming herd-follower in a PC circle jerk that is going nowhere but over a cliff yourself, I suspect.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yazidi Victim of ISIS: ‘I Was Gang-Raped, They Call This Practice Sexual Jihad’

Again, why should we believe them when they say they're raping people for some higher purpose?

 

[Pickman's model]

Motivations that have been seen in other areas of similarly inspired extremism. Such as with ISIS and the Yazidi women.
Yazidi Victim of ISIS: ‘I Was Gang-Raped, They Call This Practice Sexual Jihad’

Yeh. We all know ISIS are very keen on their Koran. So you're saying Pakistani salafists are taking ill paid jobs and using alcohol to inveigle vulnerable young women into situations where they can be raped for religious purposes.

 

[The39thStep]

yeh yeh

You're as honest as you ever were, which is to say not at all. If you gave a fuck about the abused girls you hide it well, and if you cared about countering the fascist narrative you wouldn't regurgitate that guff about backward ideologies so reminiscent of Golding, Robinson etc

Any survivor of organised sexual abuse would be comforted by by his announcement on a thread concerned with sexual abuse that his house is worth £400k.

 

[likesfish]

cypriot men on the strip had similar attitudes tourists were slags available for sex while their Women had to remain pure it was bullshit then.
they also believed every squaddie was a master of kung fu

 

[pk]

When the statistics are known it becomes far more apparent that the endemic attitudes are fostered by these young men as being their "islamic duty" or some such religious dogmatic justification, which plays a part in the attacks throughout.

So - whatever you think of me, or however much you think I give a fuck about your opinions of me - just keep talking about this issue. Here are more links for certain people to ignore.


Street Grooming, Criminality and Culture

Grooming Gang Statistics — Culture and Politics for the 21st Century

Sex abuse gangs view white girls as 'worthless' and 'trash'

Asian men targeting underage white girls for sex abuse in 'profoundly racist crime'

Oxford grooming gang: We will regret ignoring Asian thugs who target white girls

Yasmin Alibhai Brown: Jack Straw is right to ask hard questions about

Rochdale grooming trial: Mohammed Shafiq, the campaigner who stood up to the abusers

 

[pk]

Again, why should we believe them when they say they're raping people for some higher purpose?

Because this is how the behaviour has proliferated into towns and cities all over the UK. The one theme in common with all these grooming gangs is that they genuinely believe that "white girls are slags, infidels, and deserve rape", whereas girls from their own communities do not. Where do you think this collective idea comes from? I for one think it comes from the same circles as the jihadi pro-ISIS online and extremist preacher networks.
It's a form of "they bomb our brothers, we rape their daughters" mentality.
I find it staggering that most here don't find that obvious.

Anyway - I stuck up a bunch of links, I'm not getting into a pointless slagging match with anyone, this is too important and it needs addressing. It certainly needs confronting by the sections on the Left that are afraid to face the truth of it, and unwilling to hear what the actual victims have to say.

 

[RainbowTown]

The article in the Independent , which incidentially was retweeted by a number of proworking class left activists, is a good one imo. The fact that most of the liberal left would rather discuss #metoo,or equal pay for the well off at the BBC rather than Telford speaks volumes. The fact is that this is large scale sexual exploitation of working class girls labelled by sections of police , social services and other agencies as prostitutes,drug addicts or at least 'hard to reach' 'dont want to engage' .However I am also conviced that the race and religion of the perpetrators is a significant factor not only in their actions but also in the actions of the agencies and council politicians concerned. If we dont ask the questions about why 84 per cent of all people convicted for gang grooming since 2005 were Asian and all but three of the victims white working class girls rather than just blame men ,misogony , counterpose figures for paedophiles etc then someone else will and this case its the far right who monopolise it. It should have been the left first on the streets appalled at the lack of protection for working class girls not the right.The right dont want to solve the issue they only want to exploit it for the race angle , large parts of the liberal left dont want to solve it either they merely want it to go away.
In Europe where immigration and sexual assault has raised its head in Sweden and Germany the rights response is this “to give women courage and empower them to speak up against the consequences of a wrong immigration policy, whose first victims are girls and women and their freedom.”120 decibel ~ the real outcry

I agree. There does need to be a truthful, informed and rational debate from ALL SIDES about this issue. And uncomfortable questions asked where necessary. And, far more importantly, appropriate action taken where necessary. Political and cultural sensitivities should to put aside, if need be, in order to get to the truth of why these type of crimes and behaviour occur and what the response to it should be. My point though remains thus; one cannot tar all people with the same brush, even if those carrying out such crimes are claiming they are doing it in the name of their religion or culture. That's simply their depraved reasoning, trying to justify the unjustifiable. Likewise, though, I do concur there has been a failure by some on the liberal Left and by those in the Media to address this issue as thoroughly as it should be.That was/is wholly wrong and should be accounted for. Definitely so. More worryingly, though, for me is the lack of action by those in authority; the councils, the police, the social services and other agencies. That they are now - albeit belatedly - being called out about it, and being taken to task about it, is a good thing. However, the truth is they should have been doing their job in the first place. That they didn't do was an utter disgrace to the victims and to the wider community at large. A systematic failure and abdication of moral and practical responsibility that is both deplorable and unforgivable.

 

[pk]

...More worryingly, though, for me is the lack of action by those in authority; the councils, the police, the social services and other agencies. That they are now - albeit belatedly - being called out about it, and being taken to task about it, is a good thing. However, the truth is they should have been doing their job in the first place. That they didn't do was an utter disgrace to the victims and to the wider community at large. A systematic failure and abdication of moral and practical responsibility that is both deplorable and unforgivable.

More of an immediate problem is the fact that those sentenced to 22 years jail for grooming in these gangs are being considered for release after only 5 years.
As much as I’d like to see Paul Golding exit his current prison sentence in a coffin, these child rapist cunts deserve that fate a lot more.

 

[The39thStep]

I agree. There does need to be a truthful, informed and rational debate from ALL SIDES about this issue. And uncomfortable questions asked where necessary. And, far more importantly, appropriate action taken where necessary. Political and cultural sensitivities should to put aside, if need be, in order to get to the truth of why these type of crimes and behaviour occur and what the response to it should be. My point though remains thus; one cannot tar all people with the same brush, even if those carrying out such crimes are claiming they are doing it in the name of their religion or culture. That's simply their depraved reasoning, trying to justify the unjustifiable. Likewise, though, I do concur there has been a failure by some on the liberal Left and by those in the Media to address this issue as thoroughly as it should be.That was/is wholly wrong and should be accounted for. Definitely so. More worryingly, though, for me is the lack of action by those in authority; the councils, the police, the social services and other agencies. That they are now - albeit belatedly - being called out about it, and being taken to task about it, is a good thing. However, the truth is they should have been doing their job in the first place. That they didn't do was an utter disgrace to the victims and to the wider community at large. A systematic failure and abdication of moral and practical responsibility that is both deplorable and unforgivable.

I agree 100% that we shouldnt tar all people with the same brush and I'd go further in arguing that we need to back up those who are Muslim who have mainly been ignored or dismissed by the liberal left for speaking out.The Ramadhan Foundation, Southall Black Sisters, Maajid Narwaz, Sarar Khan have often been victims of this and the conservatism within some Muslim communities is so deep that people often have to speak privately about their disgust about these events.
I am not sure that I have heard anyone claiming that they are an abuser because of their religion or culture .Most of these perpetrators took drugs, drank alcohol and often forced their victims to have abortions which is strictly against their religion.Some of the perpetrators were also involved in drug gangs and traded the girls for cash.

 

[Orang Utan]

Just realised PK is taking the UKIP line here, one which has brought them to the brink of bankruptcy cos they couldn't prove in court the very charges that PK is levelling at 'the left'.

 

[likesfish]

snip which is strictly against their religion.Some of the perpetrators were also involved in drug gangs and traded the girls for cash.

but of course, the scum will have a Koran in their cell demanding halal meals and attend the mosque all the time in jail and probably be backed by their "community leader" kind of hard not to damned if you do dammed if you don't, the fash use this as an excuse to attack every brown person. The Community won't like it as they get the blame regardless of any blame.

 

[pk]

Just realised PK is taking the UKIP line here, one which has brought them to the brink of bankruptcy cos they couldn't prove in court the very charges that PK is levelling at 'the left'.

Sorry what “line” is that?

I don’t follow what UKIP are bothered about, they’re a single issue party that achieved their aims and those that bankrolled them will no doubt benefit from not being subject to the strict new EU laws surrounding off-shore tax havens. Fuck them and fuck Farage in particular, that little cunt should have died in that plane crash.

 

[pk]

I agree 100% that we shouldnt tar all people with the same brush and I'd go further in arguing that we need to back up those who are Muslim who have mainly been ignored or dismissed by the liberal left for speaking out.The Ramadhan Foundation, Southall Black Sisters, Maajid Narwaz, Sarar Khan have often been victims of this and the conservatism within some Muslim communities is so deep that people often have to speak privately about their disgust about these events.
I am not sure that I have heard anyone claiming that they are an abuser because of their religion or culture .Most of these perpetrators took drugs, drank alcohol and often forced their victims to have abortions which is strictly against their religion.Some of the perpetrators were also involved in drug gangs and traded the girls for cash.

It’s a shame Corbyn got rid of Sarah Champion for her article stating what I believe to be blatantly obvious. Although she should never have written for The Scum so she doesn’t have my sympathy.
However she articulates accurately what I’ve been saying: Sarah Champion: Labour's 'floppy left' falls silent when issues touch on race

 

[redsquirrel]

The left got this one completely wrong, from the very start. Largely due to the denial and the fingerpointing of idiots like Butchers that have never really travelled around the planet and seen the wider picture beyond small-time west country politics and charity shop bookshelves.

I know it's not worth engaging with this prick but this just shows exactly how deluded PK is.

BA (and others danny la rouge, Fozzie Bear, The39thStep etc) have been critical of state multiculturalism and identity politics ever since I've been on U75 (for which they've often being called racists). As for the 'traveled around the planet' crap, you utter twat.

 

[pk]

I know it's not worth engaging with this prick but this just shows exactly how deluded PK is.

BA (and others danny la rouge, Fozzie Bear, The39thStep etc) have been critical of state multiculturalism and identity politics ever since I've been on U75 (for which they've often being called racists). As for the 'traveled around the planet' crap, you utter twat.

Everyone here gets called “racist” at some point, it’s almost a badge of honour.
And the thing about travelling is valid.
I’ve spent months in at least 5 muslim countries, travelling with girlfriends and female friends, and the idea that someone with no experience of the world beyond Turbo Island can comment on cultural attitudes held by many muslim men towards women is fucking laughable to me. Try making your way through Indonesia with a lady friend after sunset.

 

[The39thStep]

I know it's not worth engaging with this prick but this just shows exactly how deluded PK is.

BA (and others danny la rouge, Fozzie Bear, The39thStep etc) have been critical of state multiculturalism and identity politics ever since I've been on U75 (for which they've often being called racists). As for the 'traveled around the planet' crap, you utter twat.

He's got a house worth £400k you know?

 

[Pickman's model]

He's got a house worth £400k you know?

That's how you can measure the value of his opinions.

 

[pk]

He's got a house worth £400k you know?

What have you done with the past 10 years, apart from the usual dull circlejerking here you did 10 years prior to that?

Does it not depress you to think about it?

Best thing about not spending time discussing same old shite on urban75 was gaining so much time to enjoy the real world, and there is still clearly plenty of evidence to suggest that many here really, really need to do that.

 

[Wilf]

Because this is how the behaviour has proliferated into towns and cities all over the UK. The one theme in common with all these grooming gangs is that they genuinely believe that "white girls are slags, infidels, and deserve rape", whereas girls from their own communities do not.

But it's not unusual for abusers to think about their victims as 'slags', 'wanting it' or whatever - regardless of whether those abusers are TV slebs, politicians visiting children's homes or just common or garden rapists. In fact those attitudes/self delusions/justifications pretty much define sexual abuse.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Because this is how the behaviour has proliferated into towns and cities all over the UK. The one theme in common with all these grooming gangs is that they genuinely believe that "white girls are slags, infidels, and deserve rape", whereas girls from their own communities do not. Where do you think this collective idea comes from? I for one think it comes from the same circles as the jihadi pro-ISIS online and extremist preacher networks.
It's a form of "they bomb our brothers, we rape their daughters" mentality.
I find it staggering that most here don't find that obvious.

Anyway - I stuck up a bunch of links, I'm not getting into a pointless slagging match with anyone, this is too important and it needs addressing. It certainly needs confronting by the sections on the Left that are afraid to face the truth of it, and unwilling to hear what the actual victims have to say.

Where did you get the idea that muslim girls don't get abused? My understanding is that Muslim girls are less likely to speak out especially when the abusers are within the family or their own communities.

 

[pk]

But it's not unusual for abusers to think about their victims as 'slags', 'wanting it' or whatever - regardless of whether those abusers are TV slebs, politicians visiting children's homes or just common or garden rapists. In fact those attitudes/self delusions/justifications pretty much define sexual abuse.

True. But given the co-ordinated nature of the gangs, the sheer number of victims - apparently as many as 100,000, it seems this is more of a systematic approach. And victims being constantly told they are worth less as a result of their status as non-muslims, not a million miles from the caste systems that prevail in the abusers’ countries of origin.

And even if there were no grooming gangs preying on non-muslim children, the attitudes to all women are plainly abhorrent and against all that those with a progressive mindset want to see.

 

[Pickman's model]

Because this is how the behaviour has proliferated into towns and cities all over the UK. The one theme in common with all these grooming gangs is that they genuinely believe that "white girls are slags, infidels, and deserve rape", whereas girls from their own communities do not. Where do you think this collective idea comes from? I for one think it comes from the same circles as the jihadi pro-ISIS online and extremist preacher networks.
It's a form of "they bomb our brothers, we rape their daughters" mentality.
I find it staggering that most here don't find that obvious.

Anyway - I stuck up a bunch of links, I'm not getting into a pointless slagging match with anyone, this is too important and it needs addressing. It certainly needs confronting by the sections on the Left that are afraid to face the truth of it, and unwilling to hear what the actual victims have to say.

the truth? You can't handle the truth or you wouldn't make such flagrant errors as your same circles as pro-isis fuckwittery. ISIS kill people for smoking. They'd have killed these perps for drinking, if nothing else. Yeh this is an important topic, too important for the half-baked ignorant wank you post.

 

[pk]

Where did you get the idea that muslim girls don't get abused? My understanding is that Muslim girls are less likely to speak out especially when the abusers are within the family or their own communities.

There is no comparison to the scale of co-ordinated abuses - upon as many as 100,000 girls - committed against muslim children as compared to white non-muslim children.

I think all but three victims were white British in one of the largest cases.