Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[pk]

What is British Muslim culture? Given that Muslims in the UK have their roots in countries such as Nigeria, Turkey and Bangladesh and the diversity in religious practice and culture between Sunnis and Shias and all the sects within those two broad branches, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as British Muslim culture.

I see the common specific branch of extremism which I believe to be the driving factor behind the attitudes of the men that groom children as being fostered in Pakistani based muslim attitudes. Not really the other countries mentioned, certainly not when one looks at the identities of those arrested and jailed for these crimes.

 

[butchersapron]

I don’t see a racial element to this as I do a cultural one, an extremist religious dogmatic mysogynist culture imported from backward ideologies and a demonstrably common theme with almost all these grooming cases.
From the same chasm of medieval shit that brought honour killings, FGM and forced marriages into common being. IMO.

You literally posted last night that it wasn't just race. So a genetic thing + religion.

 

[Pickman's model]

I see the common specific branch of extremism which I believe to be the driving factor behind the attitudes of the men that groom children as being fostered in Pakistani based muslim attitudes. Not really the other countries mentioned, certainly not when one looks at the identities of those arrested and jailed for these crimes.

So what is British Muslim culture?

 

[pk]

You'll never find an alternative narrative to the fash one until you stop buying into so many of their tropes.

Clearly I’m trying to counter these “tropes” but finding it hard to see anyone here who claims to be opposing fascists willing to engage with actual evidence or listen to the victims.

 

[Pickman's model]

Clearly I’m trying to counter these “tropes” but finding it hard to see anyone here who claims to be opposing fascists willing to engage with actual evidence or listen to the victims.

So it's not in fact your view that backward ideologies are involved. This thread's been going for years.now and I'm sorry if we don't all jig to your tune. Perhaps you might find some of what you're looking for if you read the thread.

 

[butchersapron]

You, knobhead, PK will be in brum? Will you fuck

 

[pk]

You literally posted last night that it wasn't just race. So a genetic thing + religion.

The geographical accident of birth would dictate your melotonin levels as well as your cultural norms, but I’m not saying anyone is racially predisposed to commit such crimes.

That would be as backward as blaming the victims for their abuse.

 

[pk]

You, knobhead, PK will be in brum? Will you fuck

I might be. Will you?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Clearly I’m trying to counter these “tropes” but finding it hard to see anyone here who claims to be opposing fascists willing to engage with actual evidence or listen to the victims.

You're clearly struggling to see anything beyond the tip of your own nose at this point and I don't think we can be held responsible for that.

 

[pk]

So it's not in fact your view that backward ideologies are involved.

Of course they are. Stop wriggling and address the links you asked for.

 

[RainbowTown]

I maybe wrong in this, I don't know, but I think the crux here is that these 'men' (I use the term loosely - pond life would be more appropriate) used their religion in a twisted and repulsive way in order to 'justify' their foul actions. In all truth, one cannot blame Islam or other Muslims for that abberation, just as one cannot blame all Catholics for the behaviour of sexual abuse within the Catholic Church or all Germans for the holocaust etc etc. The bottom line is the perpetrators here are sick, twisted and evil people with no moral compass - they used their religion (or their interpretation of their religion) to 'rationalize' their foul deeds. However, the overwhelming majority of people of every colour and creed can see through such blatant and spurious bullshit. There's no doubt about that. They see these 'men' for exactly what they are.

For me, the real tragedy here is that these girls were victims twice over - first by the vermin that carried it out and second by sections of a society that turned a blind eye to it all. A society that failed to listen and failed to act.

 

[SpookyFrank]

That would be as backward as blaming the victims for their abuse.

With such phrases as 'sexual jihad' for example.

 

[butchersapron]

I might be. Will you?

No you won't. You are googling now

 

[pk]

I maybe wrong in this, I don't know, but I think the crux here is that these 'men' (I use the term loosely - pond life would be more appropriate) used their religion in a twisted and repulsive way in order to 'justify' their foul actions. In all truth, one cannot blame Islam or other Muslims for that abberation, just as one cannot blame all Catholics for the behaviour of sexual abuse within the Catholic Church or all Germans for the holocaust etc etc. The bottom line is the perpetrators here are sick, twisted and evil people with no moral compass - they used their religion (or their interpretation of their religion) to 'rationalize' their foul deeds. However, the overwhelming majority of people of every colour and creed can see through such blatant and spurious bullshit. There's no doubt about that. They see these 'men' for exactly what they are.

For me, the real tragedy here is that these girls were victims twice over - first by the vermin that carried it out and second by sections of a society that turned a blind eye to it all. A society that failed to listen and failed to act.

Yes. And we can see here - the failure to listen and to act is continuing.

 

[pk]

No you won't. You are googling now

Yet I mentioned the date before you did. Who’s Googling?

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course they are. Stop wriggling and address the links you asked for.

If you wish people to do as you ask, not lying about what they've said would be a start. Will you apologise for your lies? If you do then I'll consider reading your link.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yes. And we can see here - the failure to listen and to act is continuing.

What's your plan of action again?

 

[The39thStep]

The article in the Independent , which incidentially was retweeted by a number of proworking class left activists, is a good one imo. The fact that most of the liberal left would rather discuss #metoo,or equal pay for the well off at the BBC rather than Telford speaks volumes. The fact is that this is large scale sexual exploitation of working class girls labelled by sections of police , social services and other agencies as prostitutes,drug addicts or at least 'hard to reach' 'dont want to engage' .However I am also conviced that the race and religion of the perpetrators is a significant factor not only in their actions but also in the actions of the agencies and council politicians concerned. If we dont ask the questions about why 84 per cent of all people convicted for gang grooming since 2005 were Asian and all but three of the victims white working class girls rather than just blame men ,misogony , counterpose figures for paedophiles etc then someone else will and this case its the far right who monopolise it. It should have been the left first on the streets appalled at the lack of protection for working class girls not the right.The right dont want to solve the issue they only want to exploit it for the race angle , large parts of the liberal left dont want to solve it either they merely want it to go away.
In Europe where immigration and sexual assault has raised its head in Sweden and Germany the rights response is this “to give women courage and empower them to speak up against the consequences of a wrong immigration policy, whose first victims are girls and women and their freedom.”120 decibel ~ the real outcry

 

[pk]

With such phrases as 'sexual jihad' for example.

I see that as accurate. It’s backed up by victim’s accounts and by the Swedish reports.
Sexual assault as a terror tactic.

Yes, 100% I stand by the term. It exists. Amazing how people are still insisting it doesn’t.
These fucks are fighting what they see as a holy war, and rape has long been a tactic of war as you well know.
Why are you so reluctant to accept the notion of a sexual jihad idea being at least a major factor behind the reported thousands of victims?

 

[pk]

What's your plan of action again?

Accept some basic truths behind the motivations of the fuckers that commit such crimes.

 

[pk]

The article in the Independent , which incidentially was retweeted by a number of proworking class left activists, is a good one imo. The fact that most of the liberal left would rather discuss #metoo,or equal pay for the well off at the BBC rather than Telford speaks volumes. The fact is that this is large scale sexual exploitation of working class girls labelled by sections of police , social services and other agencies as prostitutes,drug addicts or at least 'hard to reach' 'dont want to engage' .However I am also conviced that the race and religion of the perpetrators is a significant factor not only in their actions but also in the actions of the agencies and council politicians concerned. If we dont ask the questions about why 84 per cent of all people convicted for gang grooming since 2005 were Asian and all but three of the victims white working class girls rather than just blame men ,misogony , counterpose figures for paedophiles etc then someone else will and this case its the far right who monopolise it. It should have been the left first on the streets appalled at the lack of protection for working class girls not the right.The right dont want to solve the issue they only want to exploit it for the race angle , large parts of the liberal left dont want to solve it either they merely want it to go away.
In Europe where immigration and sexual assault has raised its head in Sweden and Germany the rights response is this “to give women courage and empower them to speak up against the consequences of a wrong immigration policy, whose first victims are girls and women and their freedom.”120 decibel ~ the real outcry

Thank-you. That is a good start.

"These assaults are not caused because of the biological or racial make-up of migrants, they are caused by the misogynistic cultural-conditioning that migrants inherit from majority-Muslim countries where in many cases women are treated like second-class citizens."

Fucking exactly this.

 

[pk]

If you wish people to do as you ask, not lying about what they've said would be a start. Will you apologise for your lies? If you do then I'll consider reading your link.

Go away, silly boy, you had your chance & blew it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I see that as accurate. It’s backed up by victim’s accounts and by the Swedish reports.
Sexual assault as a terror tactic.

Yes, 100% I stand by the term. It exists. Amazing how people are still insisting it doesn’t.
These fucks are fighting what they see as a holy war, and rape has long been a tactic of war as you well know.
Why are you so reluctant to accept the notion of a sexual jihad idea being at least a major factor behind the reported thousands of victims?

Again you're taking the words of child rapists as somehow valid. If I shot a bunch of schoolkids and then told everyone Bugs Bunny made me do it, would you take that at face value or would you think that my actions and the sheer implausibility of my justification for them were good indicators that I wasn't talking sense?

 

[The39thStep]

Thank-you. That is a good start.

I'm speaking to the other posters not you

 

[likesfish]

It is a specific culture that allows these types of gangs to exist if it was normal nonce behavior 90% of scum done for this would be white.

I don't think the sexual jihad is real its just an excuse much like the shankhill butchers thought they were fighting a war rather than being sick cunts who had an excuse to really go to town. white girls are slags is the excuse.
religion and ideology and be used to excuse any horror especially if you don't look to hard into it a few years ago there was a Somali street gang in London claiming they were jihadists pity they weren't taken at there word just to see the mugging stab happy twats face being sent to gitmo*

* wouldnt send anyone to Gitmo even actual jihadists but seeing some knife carrying twat face fall at being taken seriously as a terrorist would be but then I'm quite evil.

 

[pk]

I'm speaking to the other posters not you

I don't give a fuck who you're speaking to, you're backing up what I'm saying and I'll thank who I like.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Accept some basic truths behind the motivations of the fuckers that commit such crimes.

And you've objectively determined what those motivations were by what methodology exactly?

That aside, how does your acceptance of these doubtless highly scientific findings help anyone? Are there victims whose burdens have been lifted by the news of your acceptance of some made up reasons why they suffered as they did? Do you have quotes from them too?

 

[Wilf]

A hesitant post - hesitant not out of some sort of cowardice on a difficult issue, but because my own thoughts are not clearly or unambiguous.

Wherever the blame lies in this horrific matter, and whatever the so-called reasoning behind it is (though there is no reasoning, is there? - these 'men' are simply vile pigs, scumbags of the first order and hopefully not long for this earth) - one thing is remains certain: these girls were grotesquely let down by everyone - the police, the council, the relevant authorities. And no amount of bullshit retrospective inquiries or 'apologies' or 'lessons to be learnt' spiel will alter that fact. Deplorable, shameful and disgusting doesn't even cover it.

A hesitant post - hesitant not out of some sort of cowardice on a difficult issue, but because my own thoughts are not clear or unambiguous:

As virtually everyone has said, this is about class and gender. It's about the truly gruesome attitudes and working practices of public bodies that felt able to avoid doing the very thing they were supposed to be doing for several decades - look out for those kids. It's vile, it's the very worst of what local government is/was (and the police) and it involved a sickening degree of victim blaming. All of that dwarfs issues about 'culture', religion or anything else. And the reasons it dwarfs all that is that the vast majority of Muslim or Asian men would have been just horrified as everyone else by what went on.

Is that end of story? Well, maybe there's 2 sets of facts that still need to be kept in view. I won't dig out the links but around 90% of child sex offenders are white ( a slight over representation of white men). However there is also an overrepresentation of Asian men in grooming/collective sex offences against children (without getting into the fact that not all the studies are working with very good data). Seems to me, if you want to make some kind of realistic assessment of the offence, that's the starting point. Recognising that abuse is overwhelmingly about class and gender and carried out by white men - but that collective abuse sees an over representation of Asian men. In getting into that, 'gang' seems like a good starting point, thinking about communities, lack of integration, rather than generalisations about 'race'. That's not 'grooming happens because of racism', it's more about asking how do specific sets of blokes get to the point in there lives where they are willing to rape children and teenagers. It's about examining a crime and social phenomena the way you would with any other. Fwiw, I wouldn't shy away from keeping religious attitudes in the mix there, just as much as I wouldn't when looking at, say Christianity and domestic violence. But - and it would have been quicker to just say this - it's simply not a form of abuse that's defined by ethnicity or religion.

 

[The39thStep]

So what is British Muslim culture?

There isnt but successive governments and very often more worrying the Labour Party insist on using conservative Muslim community leaders as their litmus paper rather than progressives who are also Muslim

 

[SpookyFrank]

There isnt but successive governments and very often more worrying the Labour Party insist on using conservative Muslim community leaders as their litmus paper rather than progressives who are also Muslim

You'll never go far wrong being wary of any fucker who styles himself 'community leader'.