Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
no, YOU'RE engaging in cultural relativism. the 'patriarchy' of modern British society is in no way comparable to the patriarchy in many British Pakistani communities. different planets.
Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims
- Thread starter Ole
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nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Bullshit. What do you mean by "modern British society"? That phrase is indicative of cultural relativism. What is modernity ffs? Do you know?
eatmorecheese
He's fallen out of the car again
Patriarchy has been challenged to a greater extent in Europe, granted. But how do we explain a police officer thinking that a 12 year old sleeping with five men "consented" to the arrangement and therefore took no further action? The law is clear in this case. How do we explain this?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Err, I don't think UKIP, the BNP, Britain First et al a using race as an issue will come as a surprise to many people.
The point I was making is that the impulse of the left will be to do the opposite and pretend that there isn't a race element thereby placing themselves on the wrong side of the debate (as usual) and leaving the field clear for others who already clearly have traction in the area (also as usual).
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
nino_savatte
you have clearly had no experience with British Pakistani communities if you think there is any conceivable way you can compare these things. sorry but what you're arguing is total sophistry and absolutely cultural relativism. many women and girls in these communities have their entire lives monitored and controlled to an extent which would quite commonly be seen as serious abuse in most of post-60s non-Pakistani Britain. the entire community is usually run by a blokes syndicate at the Mosque, which protects itself, mediates family disputes and helps protect the honour of 'respected' guys who may be falling into disrepute. in most North West Pakistani Mosques, women still aren't even allowed to enter - allowed no-where near where their marriages are being arranged, businesses being attended to or grievances heard by local leaders. honour killings are a very real phenomenon... the organised scale and comprehensiveness of this patriarchy simply doesn't compare to the cultural residues of patriarchy amidst at least formal legal equality elsewhere.
you have clearly had no experience with British Pakistani communities if you think there is any conceivable way you can compare these things. sorry but what you're arguing is total sophistry and absolutely cultural relativism. many women and girls in these communities have their entire lives monitored and controlled to an extent which would quite commonly be seen as serious abuse in most of post-60s non-Pakistani Britain. the entire community is usually run by a blokes syndicate at the Mosque, which protects itself, mediates family disputes and helps protect the honour of 'respected' guys who may be falling into disrepute. in most North West Pakistani Mosques, women still aren't even allowed to enter - allowed no-where near where their marriages are being arranged, businesses being attended to or grievances heard by local leaders. honour killings are a very real phenomenon... the organised scale and comprehensiveness of this patriarchy simply doesn't compare to the cultural residues of patriarchy amidst at least formal legal equality elsewhere.
Race does play another factor in paedophilia. According to a documentary I watched about runaway boys being victims of paedophiles in Houston TX, all the paedophiles, regardless of Race or ethnic group, prefer White blond blue eyed boys.
eatmorecheese
He's fallen out of the car again
Please don't do this.
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
...you can call it patriarchy, culture, race or flipping Geronimo for all I care....I call it pure unadulterated cold calculating evil....
toggle
wobbly
on some things we're a lot better, on some things, ti's the same shit with a different label
i'ts patriarchy, but mixed with class based attitudes that have been about for hundreds of years.
what we think of as the forms of patriarchy that women have been fighting against for generations developed in the 18th/19th centuries to protect white middle class women, starting off protecting them when they went overseas, from the supposedly hypersexualised black men. parts of this being brought back to protect from the underclass at home.
because the justifications for allowing this to go on, that the w/c girls were up for it, assumptions of adult sexual behavior, look a lot like justifications for abusing underclass women that have been about since men in the colonies were raping enslaved women. and underneath it all, a seperation of 'girls like that', from 'girls like my daughter' and an attitude that it it necessary to allow an outlet for male sexual expression, so better it's girls that don't matter than 'my precious princess'.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
This was a race and class issue. Poor white girls targeted by pakistani men with fucked up ideas and authorties not doing anything because it was chavs and trying to avoid being called racist
Yup.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Or, as was the case for some of the abused girls in Rochdale, they were placed in Rochdale because it was cgeaper for their councils to do so, than to place them closer to home.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I'm also not sure it isn't being used as a screen for something even less savoury - not racism, but just plain old-fashioned municipal politics, and the mathematics of retaining constituencies.
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
...the kids being abused by paedos on club 8-13 trips to Thailand and Morocco may beg to differ.
...however there may be something to it....there's supposedley a well established human trafficking pipeline from Russia / Eastern europe in caucasian children for abuse alongside the more public girls trafficked into brothels scenario...
Well, that's what it said in the documentary. I have been unable to find it, but it was Youtube was made in around 1980-something and was about runaway boys being abused in Houston TX.
el-ahrairah
forward communism, forward gerbils!
i don't believe that anyone, when faced with a dossier of evidence about this, decided not to do anything because they were scared of being called racists. nonsense. if they did nothing, it was because it was too difficult, they didn't care enough, or they were nobbled.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The problem for such low-level employees usually being that if you use the standard complaints system, all that happens is that your complaint gets suppressed, and if you step outside of your employers' mandated procedures (i.e. going to the press), you get sacked because you've committed a "gross misconduct" offence. I'm willing to bet that a significant minority of non-disclosures were/are rooted in that dilemma, especially as the much-vaunted "whistleblower's charter" isn't worth the candle, as far as protecting employees is concerned.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
only most of the time apparently
teqniq
DisMembered
Shaun Wright is still refusing to resign, tbh why don't they just sack the guy?
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-child-abuse-police-commissioner-urged-resign
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-child-abuse-police-commissioner-urged-resign
dessiato
🇪🇸 my spirit is crying for leaving
This case should be beyond belief. It is a very sad thing that it isn't. The victims...I can't imagine what they have and are suffering due to their treatment by all involved, the perpetrators, the people who are supposed to have protected them. People involved in the crimes and the cover up should be hung out to dry over this.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
who is 'they'?
teqniq
DisMembered
Good point. I suppose it would be like turkeys voting for Chritsmas.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Someone I'm acquainted with from another board, who's from Donny, reckons this sort of contempt for the working class is endemic in South Yorkshire, and he reckons it's due to the embedded nature of local politics and one-party dominance: The fact that councillors and council offers don't have to give a fuck about the working class, because voting is still pretty much tribal - people will vote Labour come Hell or high water. Why bother with people when you've got their vote stitched up? It's a decent-ish theory, because it seems to be transferable to anywhere that has seen historic single-party dominance.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
unless you know better I don't believe there is an authority which can sack, impeach or otherwise discipline a police commissioner.Good point. I suppose it would be like turkeys voting for Chritsmas.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
given hell's just arrived, and high water can't be far behind, it will be interesting to see how the labour party deal with this.
Lurdan
old wave
It's always seemed to me that the socially conservative attitudes and prejudices amongst some of my (asian) neighbours are remarkably similar to the attitudes among my (white) grandparents generation. Concerns with family honour and shame are pretty much identical to my grandparents generations deeply held concerns about family respectability. Being 'not respectable' could have a material impact on the opportunities open to you. My maternal grandfather was a bigamist - my grandmothers marriage status and my mothers illegitimacy were family secrets so deep they weren't even discussed until after both grandparents were dead but that secrecy itself had a very material impact on our family life.
However - exactly like my neighbours - most people in my grandparents generation didn't act on their prejudices in extreme ways. My grandmother didn't like the idea of homosexuality (not despite but perhaps because at least one of her brothers was gay - another family secret) but she was entirely accepting when one of my siblings came out. My mother wasn't happy when one of my sisters got pregnant and decided not to marry the father but she accepted it - she gave my sister a very hard time (in my opinion to a damaging extent) but no more than she'd been doing ever since she was born and not about the pregnancy. Other families of my grandparents generation treated their 'black sheep' very differently of course but only a small minority took it to violent extremes and while other members of the community might 'understand' what they did they didn't condone it. Most people with racist, misogynistic and homophobic prejudices pick them up from the culture around them but they don't act on them. In fact many of them can happily combine talking bollocks about abstract groups 'out there' with friendly relations with actual members of those groups.
It's like suggesting that the Shankill Butchers were expressing something essential about Protestant culture in Northern Ireland. That culture isn't irrelevant to their actions, and the way the Protestant community was structured (and structured itself) wasn't irrelevant to how they acted. But the fundamental problem wasn't Protestant culture it was the fact they were murdering cunts. Losing sight of that is, in my opinion, just another way of avoiding the issue. Misogynistic prejudices are a real problem. The sexual abuse of children is a real problem. But they are not identical problems and you can't deal with the latter by focussing on the former (any more than you can deal with sexual abuse by campaigning about pornography). Indeed it can be an excellent way of deliberately not addressing the 'difficult' aspects of the real problem.
However - exactly like my neighbours - most people in my grandparents generation didn't act on their prejudices in extreme ways. My grandmother didn't like the idea of homosexuality (not despite but perhaps because at least one of her brothers was gay - another family secret) but she was entirely accepting when one of my siblings came out. My mother wasn't happy when one of my sisters got pregnant and decided not to marry the father but she accepted it - she gave my sister a very hard time (in my opinion to a damaging extent) but no more than she'd been doing ever since she was born and not about the pregnancy. Other families of my grandparents generation treated their 'black sheep' very differently of course but only a small minority took it to violent extremes and while other members of the community might 'understand' what they did they didn't condone it. Most people with racist, misogynistic and homophobic prejudices pick them up from the culture around them but they don't act on them. In fact many of them can happily combine talking bollocks about abstract groups 'out there' with friendly relations with actual members of those groups.
It's like suggesting that the Shankill Butchers were expressing something essential about Protestant culture in Northern Ireland. That culture isn't irrelevant to their actions, and the way the Protestant community was structured (and structured itself) wasn't irrelevant to how they acted. But the fundamental problem wasn't Protestant culture it was the fact they were murdering cunts. Losing sight of that is, in my opinion, just another way of avoiding the issue. Misogynistic prejudices are a real problem. The sexual abuse of children is a real problem. But they are not identical problems and you can't deal with the latter by focussing on the former (any more than you can deal with sexual abuse by campaigning about pornography). Indeed it can be an excellent way of deliberately not addressing the 'difficult' aspects of the real problem.
teqniq
DisMembered
Haha no, I don't and now you come to mention it I think someone already pointed this out upthread. Well he should resign but evidently he has no shame.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Nope, it's more that it's an issue that's easily attributable to cultural causes, which is an easier thing to do than examining why a majority of Pakistani men feel NO need to rape under-age non-Pakistani females. It's more convenient than examining why the minority of Pakistanis who become rapists of this sort were able to do so, and with impunity.
Yes, the fact that the perpetrators were Pakistani/of the local Pakistani community may have informed official thinking with regard to doing anything at all about the abuse, but the abusers didn't abuse because of their culture - they abused because they were able to: Because they were and are anti-social criminals who found an outlet for their paedophilic perversions.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
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