Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[SpookyFrank]

12 year olds by law can't give consent and if they do it verbally an adult by law can't act on it. It's rape however they try to dress it up.

A policeman saying otherwise is staggering and if it can be proven should be enough to charge him with criminal negligence.

 

[Das Uberdog]

I believe this is the case in some British Pakistani communities, but certainly not everywhere. I've known communities in different parts of the same city where attitudes have been very different. I can easily believe that you've experienced some unpleasant things, particularly where treatment of women is concerned, but it's very dangerous to generalise.

that's very true and i should make more pains to stress the graded nature of all of what i'm saying - ime attitudes in cities are much more progressive and tolerant than attitudes in outlying towns, and as you say they differ within communities too. but that said i think people would be shocked at how widespread some sentiments are in places like Burnley, or in Blackburn where i went to college.

 

[likesfish]

Rotherham is the size of brighton and hove 1400 kids abused in 16 years kids saying gang rape was part of growing up
This wasn't just these cunts
Name[2]ConvictionSentence
Zafran Ramzanrape, 2 charges of sexual activity with a child9 years
Razwan Razaq2 charges of sexual activity with a child11 years
Umar Razaqsexual activity with a child4.5 years
Adil Hussainsexual activity with a child4 years
Mohsin Khansexual activity with a child4 years

Some of these scumbags werent even in puberty when this shit started fucking council,police need to be fucked off.
Bloody farthers were arressted for trying to rescue their daughters because they were racist proles who didnt understand multiculturalism
If this isnt a case to riot I dont know what is

 

[SpookyFrank]

that's very true and i should make more pains to stress the graded nature of all of what i'm saying - ime attitudes in cities are much more progressive and tolerant than attitudes in outlying towns, and as you say they differ within communities too. but that said i think people would be shocked at how widespread some sentiments are in places like Burnley, or in Blackburn where i went to college.

I think this would correlate strongly with the areas where people in immigrant communities were treated well by the locals when those communities first began to develop. If a certain group of people feels isolated and embattled then those people will naturally become more insular and self-reliant, and therefore more vulnerable to dodgy people within that group gaining influence. It must be a lot easier to convince people that non-muslims are subhuman if your community has been a victim of sub-human behaviour from certain non-muslims in the past.

 

[treelover]

Left Unity calls for full, long term, social, economic, health and legal support to be made available to all victims of child abuse.
We call for fully funded children's services in every local authority with good professional development an...d trade union representation
We call for children's voices to be heard in all services.
The legal processes must be reformed.
Those in public office who have hidden and protected child abuse and abusers must go. This includes the abusers in high places in this country. Questions must be asked about police in Yorkshire. Hillsborough and Orgreave are now joined in the hall of shame by Rotherham.
Abuse is endemic in this society. No-one with any responsibility must be excused, not one perpetrator or accomplice. All networks of support for abuse must be broken. Men (and a very few women) of all races and some of in high office have been involved.
We need a better world for all our children. A better world is possible"
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/26/rotherham-sexual-abuse-children

What do posters think of this Left Unity statement, are they obfuscating, or being cautious,etc?

 

[butchersapron]

What do posters think of this Left Unity statement, are they obfuscating, or being cautious,etc?

Have you a link to the statement?

Does it really matter what LU say? Is that what needs to be concentrated on here?

 

[cesare]

Who are Left Unity?

 

[Lurdan]

What do posters think of this Left Unity statement

That they are wankers, that the idea of using these events for (vacuous) self-publicity is loathsome
(and that when some of us finished up a text thirty years ago with the words 'We Need A New World' we were being semi-satirical).

 

[Pickman's model]

...well this sort apparently...Mr Crowley...

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/23/rise-female-shoplifters-benefit-cuts-police

so who commits all the long firm fraud, internet scams and so on and so forth if it's not these poverty-stricken people?

 

[treelover]

Have you a link to the statement?

Does it really matter what LU say? Is that what needs to be concentrated on here?

its on the FB page, that's all there is, unless you want to make a comment

no it doesn't but it is interesting they have said something, they are a growing left party which will eventually stand candidates, especially in areas like Rotherham

 

[Pickman's model]

Who are Left Unity?

they've surely split by now

 

[SpookyFrank]

they've surely split by now

But there is now a Left Unity Reconciliation Coalition, currently locked in a bitter war with the Left Unity Reformation Committee over the rights to the acronym 'LURC'.

 

[nino_savatte]

nino_savatte

you have clearly had no experience with British Pakistani communities if you think there is any conceivable way you can compare these things. sorry but what you're arguing is total sophistry and absolutely cultural relativism. many women and girls in these communities have their entire lives monitored and controlled to an extent which would quite commonly be seen as serious abuse in most of post-60s non-Pakistani Britain. the entire community is usually run by a blokes syndicate at the Mosque, which protects itself, mediates family disputes and helps protect the honour of 'respected' guys who may be falling into disrepute. in most North West Pakistani Mosques, women still aren't even allowed to enter - allowed no-where near where their marriages are being arranged, businesses being attended to or grievances heard by local leaders. honour killings are a very real phenomenon... the organised scale and comprehensiveness of this patriarchy simply doesn't compare to the cultural residues of patriarchy amidst at least formal legal equality elsewhere.

You're making presumptions. You should familiarise yourself with section 11 of the report.

You should also have a look at the "Uni Lad.Go on, rape her. She won't report it" thread. If you think this sort of behaviour is exclusive to one culture, you to have a word with yourself. Sophistry, my arse.

 

[nino_savatte]

Err, I don't think UKIP, the BNP, Britain First et al a using race as an issue will come as a surprise to many people.

The point I was making is that the impulse of the left will be to do the opposite and pretend that there isn't a race element thereby placing themselves on the wrong side of the debate (as usual) and leaving the field clear for others who already clearly have traction in the area (also as usual).

I'm old enough to remember the mugging scare of the 70s. People, many of them on the Right and some who should have known better, were claiming that mugging was carried out exclusively by young black men. Some people will also conclude that because more black men are in the penal system, that they must be genetically predisposed to criminality.

 

[hot air baboon]

so who commits all the long firm fraud, internet scams and so on and so forth if it's not these poverty-stricken people?

...its all those ruthless thread hi-jackers that worry me...

 

[Diamond]

There are a number of severe problems that arise directly from the report:

• If 1,400 girls were systematically abused over a period of roughly 16 years in a town of under 250,000 people, how many people knew about the abuse and did or said nothing?

• Further, how quickly did this culture of abuse become commonplace or, more to the point, how quickly did Rotherham and surrounding areas readily come to accept it as the status quo, and why?

• Finally, and perhaps most saliently, if it took Western European society decades of feminist struggle to afford women in 2014 the respect that they were denied in 1914, why is it inconceivable that other cultures have yet to make similar advances? This is not a race issue, it is a cultural one - there are a multitudinous variety of different Muslim cultures but it is commonly recognised that the brand that comes from the tribal regions of Pakistan is brutal in the extreme towards women.

 

[The39thStep]

Wasn't it the same council that suspended a UKIP member from fostering?

 

[butchersapron]

There are a number of severe problems that arise directly from the report

• Finally, and perhaps most saliently, if it took Western European society decades of feminist struggle to afford women in 2014 the respect that they were denied in 1914, why is it inconceivable that other cultures have yet to make similar advances? This is not a race issue, it is a cultural one - there are a multitudinous variety of different Muslim cultures but it is commonly recognised that the brand that comes from the tribal regions of Pakistan is brutal in the extreme towards women.

Hang on, are you suggesting (and most saliently) women didn't have the vote and were discriminated against on a whole range of social issues because they were in some way culturally backwards? And in a way comparable to tribal pakistan? That women had to be brought up to standard before being part of society and being deserving of equal rights and treatment?

Jesus, your drunk posts last week were better than this.

 

[butchersapron]

It is key here to disengage race from culture and refuse those who merge the two. There's a fair few knocking about reading this thread, dropping a few hints now and then.

 

[_angel_]

You're making presumptions. You should familiarise yourself with section 11 of the report.

You should also have a look at the "Uni Lad.Go on, rape her. She won't report it" thread. If you think this sort of behaviour is exclusive to one culture, you to have a word with yourself. Sophistry, my arse.

That's not fair, he's not saying no one else rapes/grooms.

 

[Pickman's model]

But there is now a Left Unity Reconciliation Coalition, currently locked in a bitter war with the Left Unity Reformation Committee over the rights to the acronym 'LURC'.

I'm looking forward to the emergence of the left unity reconciliation coalition: interim organisation

 

[The39thStep]

I'm old enough to remember the mugging scare of the 70s. People, many of them on the Right and some who should have known better, were claiming that mugging was carried out exclusively by young black men. Some people will also conclude that because more black men are in the penal system, that they must be genetically predisposed to criminality.

The thing is though in certain parts of the country at that time young black people were the majority perpetrators of street robbery.

In other areas the majority were white .

The most sensible conclusion was that as most robberies involve multiple perpetrators was that it was peer based.

 

[Diamond]

It is key here to disengage race from culture and refuse those who merge the two. There's a fair few knocking about reading this thread, dropping a few hints now and then.

Although not often so with butchers, I am in thorough agreement on this point. [no doubt that sounds rather pompous...]

Also, culture is syncretic in nature. The culture of tribal areas of Pakistan, transported to the North of England, and then adapted by subsequent generations will most probably change to its environment while reflecting certain roots.

 

[Crispy]

Hang on, are you suggesting (and most saliently) women didn't have the vote and were discriminated against on a whole range of social issues because they were in some way culturally backwards? And in a way comparable to tribal pakistan? That women had to be brought up to standard before being part of society and being deserving of equal rights and treatment?

Jesus, your drunk posts last week were better than this.

I think you've misread - he's saying that "Western European society" was backward in its discrimination against women, not the women themselves. Those women fought and won many battles which have not been won in other societies (that there are still many more battles left unwon goes without saying). I don't think this is a controversial point is it?

 

[Diamond]

Hang on, are you suggesting (and most saliently) women didn't have the vote and were discriminated against on a whole range of social issues because they were in some way culturally backwards? And in a way comparable to tribal pakistan? That women had to be brought up to standard before being part of society and being deserving of equal rights and treatment?

Jesus, your drunk posts last week were better than this.

Sorry, I can't follow your line of reasoning on this one.

I think the point was fairly clear but let me express it more succintly - feminism took over a hundred years to achieve reasonably equal rights for women in one culture (i.e. ours, the West), is it so inconceivable that women are denied similar rights in other cultures where feminism is denied?

 

[butchersapron]

I think you've misread - he's saying that "Western European society" was backward in its discrimination against women, not the women themselves. Those women fought and won many battles which have not been won in other societies (that there are still many more battles left unwon goes without saying). I don't think this is a controversial point is it?

Yes, i think i did misread. I do hope so. But you never know with diamond - apols to diamond if i had that wrong.

Big differences though - one a coalition of bottom-up and middle class women fighting for social and political (note: not economic - but that's OT) equality - another a relic of a an old form of social relations, beaten into authority through religion then imported into another country where it can again be re-authorised. One expansive by definition, one wanting to be left alone and given some form of legitimacy by that very state that women fought against.

 

[butchersapron]

Sorry, I can't follow your line of reasoning on this one.

I think the point was fairly clear but let me express it more succintly - feminism took over a hundred years to achieve reasonably equal rights for women in one culture (i.e. ours, the West), is it so inconceivable that women are denied similar rights in other cultures where feminism is denied?

Yes, that's better, with the added points that this culture doesn't exist on it's own (no matter how much it would like to) - it exists within a wider legal/political etc framework, as do the victims - and it was this wider culture that helped prime or facilitate them being victims.

 

[Grandma Death]

This. Not just a 'race' issue or a gender issue but a class issue.

I don't think this is race issue. No more than the high level peado ring or Savile etc is a race issue. This is a class and gender issue.

 

[Diamond]

Yes, that's better, with the added points that this culture doesn't exist on it's own (no matter how much it would like to) - it exists within a wider legal/political etc framework, as do the victims - and it was this wider culture that helped prime or facilitate them being victims.

Agreed, although I suspect we would come to different conclusions on the precise nature of the surrounding superstructure, but that is, as you identify, surely the key point?

1,400 girls over 16 years and those are conservative estimates.

Let's say each girl perhaps has a social circle of between 50 and 100 people, including friends and parents.

Then lets say that each girl perhaps lets on to maybe 5 people in her social circle, again a conservative estimate, about what may be happening to her.

So we come to an, admittedly back of a napkin, figure of maybe 7000 people who may have known to some degree about what was going on and did nothing out of a population of 250,000 odd.

And then, beyond that, there would surely have been talk of all of this that spread beyond people who knew more or less for sure that it was going on.

When you think through the mechanics of it, it is absolutely staggering. It's not difficult, for instance, to come to the conclusion that the majority of people in town would have known what was going on.

I'm not quite sure what the ramifications of that are but it certainly goes beyond a specific culture within an individual town.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'm old enough to remember the mugging scare of the 70s. People, many of them on the Right and some who should have known better, were claiming that mugging was carried out exclusively by young black men. Some people will also conclude that because more black men are in the penal system, that they must be genetically predisposed to criminality.

What are you going on about?