Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[TopCat]

I don't think this is race issue. No more than the high level peado ring or Savile etc is a race issue. This is a class and gender issue.

How does that analysis account then for the way that the perpetrators targeted the victims on the nature of their race, culture, gender and class?

 

[Diamond]

How does that analysis account then for the way that the perpetrators targeted the victims on the nature of their race, culture, gender and class?

Again, that is a key point - racism travels in both directions.

Most of the alleged perpetrators were Northern English Pakistanis, i.e. brown men as they will be not very subtly identified in most news reports, and perhaps the most important point to recognise is that the targets of the abuse were individuals who were ostensibly viewed as beneath these men - white women.

In that manner, the abuse was an articulation of a type of racism that isn't very well recognised because it carries no particular legacy of slavery or colonialism - racism against white people.

 

[Grandma Death]

the vast bulk of these kind of grooming gangs are Pakistani though; not Bangladeshi, not Somalian, not Hindu, not Arab, not Persian. and despite the fact that most members of the community may not explicitly support such circuits the severe attitudes towards those who fall into their category of 'prostitute'are really quite widespread. it's not a thousand miles away from the attitudes that are pretty well established across North West Pakistani communities (where i'm from and only direct experience is based) to tolerating or apologizing for the kind of behaviour shown in these groups.

This means nothing really. OK some Pakistani people view women as pieces of shit. That's not synonymous with Pakistanis. You'll find that attitude with some men right the way across cultures, classes and races. I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are some cultural aspects to these cases. That is in some of these communities there is a tight knit culture. These predators single out vulnerable women. When that victim is under their control they tell their friends or family. So in that sense the modus operandi is no different to sexual predators that operate in groups of two or more. This is seen with the high level peado ring amongst mps, judges, children's homes etc. It's pedophiles operating together. The disproportionate amount of offenders being Asian is reflective of the closed nature that exists in some aspects of Pakistani culture. I believe that is the only cultural aspect of these offences up for discussion. The overwhelming majority of the UKs Pakistani community will be disgusted by what's happened.

 

[trabuquera]

ahem.
has it not been repeated ad nauseam that these men did in fact abuse several girls of Pakistani background as well as the others? Did that actually happen, or not?

 

[Grandma Death]

Again, that is a key point - racism travels in both directions.

Most of the alleged perpetrators were Northern English Pakistanis, i.e. brown men as they will be not very subtly identified in most news reports, and perhaps the most important point to recognise is that the targets of the abuse were individuals who were ostensibly viewed as beneath these men - white women.

In that manner, the abuse was an articulation of a type of racism that isn't very well recognised because it carries no particular legacy of slavery or colonialism - racism against white people.

No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?

 

[TopCat]

ahem.
has it not been repeated ad nauseam that these men did in fact abuse several girls of Pakistani background as well as the others? Did that actually happen, or not?

I could not bring myself to read the report as of yet. However this is the first mention I have seen with regard to abuse of Pakistani origin girls/women.

 

[Pickman's model]

No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from nice middle class backgrounds?

yes let's say that working class women are vulnerable and easier to manipulate with drugs and alcohol.

working class homes are chaotic

 

[Diamond]

No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?

By the accounts that I have read, many of these girls did come from normal homes, with no prior history of abuse or disruption.

Perhaps I am wrong on that account. I will return to the report and evidence to confirm in due course.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I could not bring myself to read the report as of yet. However this is the first mention I have seen with regard to abuse of Pakistani origin girls/women.

I haven't seen any mention of this. The Guardian reports that the ovewhelming majority of the abused were white and a smaller number were mixed race.

 

[Pickman's model]

The disproportionate amount of offenders being Asian is reflective of the closed nature that exists in some aspects of Pakistani culture.

which aspects are those?

 

[Grandma Death]

yes let's say that working class women are vulnerable and easier to manipulate with drugs and alcohol while middle class women can't be tempted.

Clearly not. But didn't many of these women come from children's homes, unstable problematic backgrounds etc so in that sense they'll be more vulnerable. I did use the world vulnerable first. I guess you missed that part

 

[Lurdan]

Not 1400 girls. "At a conservative estimate" 1400 girls and boys. The report dealt with all reported Child Sexual Exploitation (CSE) for which documentation could be found. A good many of the boys were related to the case of a single pedophile imprisoned in 2007 but the report stresses that under-reporting was far more likely for boys, as it also was for Pakistani girls.

4.18 - We read the files of ten boys who were groomed and abused by the lone male prosecuted and sentenced in 2007, and a further seven files of boys/young men who were his alleged victims. Following the trial, children's social care considered only two of the ten victims to meet the threshold for social care, although many had been raped and at least one was suspected of being involved in abusing other child victims. So far as we could ascertain from the files, none of these children was referred to Risky Business, and only one was referred for specialist counselling, where there was a long waiting list. One of the children who failed to meet the threshold for social care went on to become a serious sex offender, convicted of the abduction and rape of young girls.

Six of the CSE team's caseload at May 2014 were male, and 45 female.

To repeat what has been said up-thread I think people do need to read the report.

 

[Pickman's model]

Clearly not. But didn't many of these women come from children's homes, unstable problematic backgrounds etc so in that sense they'll be more vulnerable

yes. but it's a bit much for you to extrapolate from that that middle class women all come from stable backgrounds and are not vulnerable or that working class homes are any more chaotic than middle class homes.

 

[seventh bullet]

No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?

I know, working class people are so dysfunctional aren't they?

 

[Pickman's model]

I know, working class people are so dysfunctional aren't they?

yes. one whiff of the barmaid's apron and they're all over the place.

 

[Sweet FA]

So it's not partly a class issue Pickman's model? (Genuinely asking).

 

[Pickman's model]

By the accounts that I have read, many of these girls did come from normal homes, with no prior history of abuse or disruption.

Perhaps I am wrong on that account. I will return to the report and evidence to confirm in due course.

yeh but it makes better copy to say they're from dysfunctional backgrounds - thus having a swipe at the victims too.

 

[eatmorecheese]

Again, that is a key point - racism travels in both directions.

Most of the alleged perpetrators were Northern English Pakistanis, i.e. brown men as they will be not very subtly identified in most news reports, and perhaps the most important point to recognise is that the targets of the abuse were individuals who were ostensibly viewed as beneath these men - white women.

In that manner, the abuse was an articulation of a type of racism that isn't very well recognised because it carries no particular legacy of slavery or colonialism - racism against white people.

Prejudice and exploitation of vulnerable young people. This was child trafficking for sex, not a manifestation of anti-white racism. The distinction is crucial. It's these vacuums in understanding that allow crap like this to reach such huge proportions and allow public officials to think of this as a community relations issue, rather than mass rape.

ETA: I can't articulate properly on this, maybe later.

 

[Diamond]

yeh but it makes better copy to say they're from dysfunctional backgrounds - thus having a swipe at the victims too.

Agreed.

 

[Grandma Death]

which aspects are those?

Depends which area you're living in but areas where there is a ghettoised community where there's a greater concentration of said groups of people .
That's not to say all communities like this are the same but there's a greater tendency in these communities for them to be tighter knit and possibly more insular.

I speak as someone that's lived and worked in some of these communities. I lived in Huddersfield for 7 years, worked there and Bradford too.

There are some section of the Pakistani community that are very tight knit and insular. Not all but some.

 

[Pickman's model]

So it's not partly a class issue Pickman's model? (Genuinely asking your opinion).

yes, it is partly a class issue. but a very good point made in 'silence of the lambs' is that the offender covets what he sees: he isn't going to be after girls from roedean or boys from eton because the young people into which he runs come from a similar economic background - working class. however, it is to say the least unhelpful to bring various prejudices to the fore, eg working class girls inherently more vulnerable than middle class, middle class families more stable etc etc ad nauseam.

 

[Grandma Death]

yes. but it's a bit much for you to extrapolate from that that middle class women all come from stable backgrounds and are not vulnerable or that working class homes are any more chaotic than middle class homes.

I'm not. You're extrapolating that. I'm stating a fact. These girls were often targeted for their vulnerability. It just so happens that the girls in question were in many cases from a working class background. Now that doesnt mean people from middle class backgrounds are less likely to suffer from the same issues as these girls did-and it doesn't mean that working class girls are more likely to suffer from these issues either.

 

[Lurdan]

5.15 - The process of grooming has been well documented in national reports and research. Many of the cases we examined showed classic evidence of grooming. Many of the children were already vulnerable when grooming began. The perpetrators targeted children's residential units and residential services for care leavers. It was not unusual for children in residential services and schools to introduce other children to the perpetrators.

5.16 - Many of the case files we read described children who had troubled family backgrounds, with a history of domestic violence, parental addiction, and in some cases serious mental health problems. A significant number of the victims had a history of child neglect and/or sexual abuse when they were younger. Some had a desperate need for attention and affection.

 

[butchersapron]

Prejudice and exploitation of vulnerable young people. This was child trafficking for sex, not a manifestation of anti-white racism. The distinction is crucial. It's these vacuums in understanding that allow crap like this to reach such huge proportions and allow public officials to think of this as a community relations issue, rather than mass rape.

ETA: I can't articulate properly on this, maybe later.

Nope, that was excellently put. I think diamond must have edited in that last line and i missed it or i'm sure i would have tried to say something similar. But maybe that the CSE was facilitated by existing cultural prejudices - the prejudices were not the motivation.

And to repeat Lurdan, i think a lot more people (myself included) might be beneficial.

 

[Diamond]

Prejudice and exploitation of vulnerable young people. This was child trafficking for sex, not a manifestation of anti-white racism. The distinction is crucial. It's these vacuums in understanding that allow crap like this to reach such huge proportions and allow public officials to think of this as a community relations issue, rather than mass rape.

ETA: I can't articulate properly on this, maybe later.

Racism isn't just that picture of an unfortunate young black chap swinging from a tree in Alabama by the way...

It is much more subtle and runs far deeper than such extreme KKK style events.

When one group, ethnically self-defined, views another group, ethnically defined [albeit, crucially externally so], as sub-human or in some way capable of or conducive to exploitation for reasons that are essential to that ethnicity, then that is racism.

 

[Grandma Death]

I know, working class people are so dysfunctional aren't they?

Maybe if I rephrase that to stable backgrounds and omit the middle class. I can see how that can be misinterpreted but that wasn't my intention

 

[butchersapron]

Racism isn't just that picture of an unfortunate young black chap swinging from a tree in Alabama by the way...

It is much more subtle and runs far deeper than such extreme KKK style events.

When one group, ethnically self-defined, views another group, ethnically defined [albeit, crucially externally so], as sub-human or in some way capable of or conducive to exploitation for reasons that are essential to that ethnicity, then that is racism.

What about if it's only vulnerable young boys and girls from that group who are viewed as sub-human - and so targeted? Or do you think was anti-white people full stop? That this is what drove it and what lies behind both these actions and the wider culture that supported it?

 

[Pickman's model]

No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?

I'm not. You're extrapolating that. I'm stating a fact. These girls were often targeted for their vulnerability. It just so happens that the girls in question were in many cases from a working class background. Now that doesnt mean people from middle class backgrounds are less likely to suffer from the same issues as these girls did-and it doesn't mean that working class girls are more likely to suffer from these issues either.

your first post quoted asks

a) 'why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes?'
b) 'how many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?'

the clear implication being that you feel that a) middle class homes more stable; b) working class girls more vulnerable; c) working class homes more chaotic. I'm not the only person to have so interpreted your post. perhaps there are implications and meanings in your post you did not intend. that doesn't mean they're not there.

 

[Das Uberdog]

This means nothing really. OK some Pakistani people view women as pieces of shit. That's not synonymous with Pakistanis. You'll find that attitude with some men right the way across cultures, classes and races. I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are some cultural aspects to these cases. That is in some of these communities there is a tight knit culture. These predators single out vulnerable women. When that victim is under their control they tell their friends or family. So in that sense the modus operandi is no different to sexual predators that operate in groups of two or more. This is seen with the high level peado ring amongst mps, judges, children's homes etc. It's pedophiles operating together. The disproportionate amount of offenders being Asian is reflective of the closed nature that exists in some aspects of Pakistani culture. I believe that is the only cultural aspect of these offences up for discussion. The overwhelming majority of the UKs Pakistani community will be disgusted by what's happened.

yes but some cultures propogate ideas more comprehensively, reliably and severely than others. i also don't think that in all of these grooming cases it's as simple as comparing it to a paedo ring... as you say, vulnerability is a large part of the issue and i think some of the girls were picked up because they were vulnerable as a result of being young than because they were young. why i think it's important to acknowledge the communal issue is that as opposed to a paedo ring where they assorted weirdos and fuck ups find eachother and operate against the grain of their surroundings, my entire contention is that in some areas there are broadly common sentiments expressed on behalf of certain communities which essentially tolerate or apologise for this kind of behaviour.

that, with all the caveats noted by spanky longhorn on page 7 or whichever...

 

[Diamond]

What about if it's only vulnerable young boys and girls from that group who are viewed as sub-human?

Clearly that is a complicating factor, in the same manner that only white girls of a particular socio-economic class might meet the requirements for such contempt, although I would argue that the push factors in that event would probably have origins in racial prejudice whereas the pull factors would serve to exclude those who are more privileged.