Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[Stoat Boy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003.

Whilst its not surprising to not find a thread on here about these men being found guilty (there really is a collective streak of cowardice running through U75 when it comes to topics like this) I thought the the differing views on whether there was a racial element to this are worth discussing.

Two views...

Keith Vaz says child sex ring case not a race issue.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-says-child-sex-ring-case-not-race-issue.html

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown "discuss these horrors openly or play straight into racists hands"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...play-straight-into-racists-hands-7723400.html

Now of course a lot of you are just going to slate me for starting the thread rather than actually writing anything to do with the issue so no change there but given its prominence in all of the major media outlets this morning it is something that is being discussed in Britain and raises issues for all of us. Those poor girls were rejected by all of us in someways and whilst what these scumbags did to them is fully deserving of punishing I also wonder how much all of us played in creating a situation in which these girls became vulnerable to this sort of thing.

 

[Idaho]

Is there a racial element? Yes of course there is, because you are discussing it in those terms.

Just as race itself only exists because there is racism. There is no sound biological basis for it beyond this cultural definition.

As for collective cowardice. I don't think that's correct. I just think that there isn't a collective desire to make broad brush statements about racial traits causing any of this. Abuse and forced prostitution of poor girls and young women is not a new thing. It happens all the time and throughout history. And the common thread is not skin colour, race, religion or culture - but poverty.

 

[rover07]

We had a 100 page thread on this last year.

 

[editor]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003.

Whilst its not surprising to not find a thread on here about these men being found guilty (there really is a collective streak of cowardice running through U75 when it comes to topics like this) I thought the the differing views on whether there was a racial element to this are worth discussing.

Pretty sure you'll find no shortage of other news events that haven't been commented on here, and I'm pretty sure it's got naff all to do with folks suffering a 'collective streak of cowardice' (whatever that is).

As for this story: good work by the cops and great to see these scumbags getting their just desserts.

 

[editor]

We had a 100 page thread on this last year.

Yes we did. With nearly 2,500 replies and a grand bunfight.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/weasel-straw-strikes-again-pakistani-men-in-britain-see-white-girls-as-easy-meat.266988/

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Now of course a lot of you are just going to slate me for starting the thread

Given that in your first sentence you make it clear that your point with this thread is to slag off other U75 posters, that wouldn't be a very surprising reaction.

 

[Grandma Death]

Now of course a lot of you are just going to slate me for starting the thread rather than actually writing anything to do with the issue so no change there but given its prominence in all of the major media outlets this morning it is something that is being discussed in Britain and raises issues for all of us. Those poor girls were rejected by all of us in someways and whilst what these scumbags did to them is fully deserving of punishing I also wonder how much all of us played in creating a situation in which these girls became vulnerable to this sort of thing.

This. I think those that seek to make political capital out of this (BNP/EDL) are ironically exploiting the misery of others for their own ends and that makes them scum. Also-making this about race and religion detracts from the real issues. In this case the police are being criticised for not doing enough in some of the mens cases who had previous form. There's issues around family breakdown, the care system etc-loads of questions as to why these young vulnerable girls ever found themselves in this position. Child abuse is a societal issue that requires a societal response from many different individuals/agencies etc. The victims accounts I found incredibly distressing-outside this ring of abusers somebody mustve been aware of this-and for me thats a massive issue.

 

[editor]

Another related thread on this story here too:
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-conflation-of-race-with-the-issue-of-child-abuse.284505/

 

[Mrs Magpie]

As for this story: good work by the cops and great to see these scumbags getting their just desserts.

Well, not good work by the cops actually. It wasn't investigated properly for two years after an initial complaint by one of the victims. The CPS said she wasn't a credible witness so the police lost interest in the case until much later and many victims later.

 

[Grandma Death]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/08/asian-sex-gangs-on-street-grooming

 

[Spymaster]

And the common thread is not skin colour, race, religion or culture - but poverty.

I'm not so sure. The BBC handled this one quite delicately in a report last night. The correspondent went to great lengths to point out that the vast majority of sex crimes in this country were committed by white English males, however, the vast majority (80% I think) of cases where white girls are groomed and shared by groups of men, are committed by British Pakistani males.

Is it wrong to ponder that there may be a cultural element towards the treatment of women in general, but particularly non-muslim women, by these groups?

 

[Grandma Death]

Is it wrong to ponder that there may be a cultural element towards the treatment of women in general, but particularly non-muslim women, by these groups?

I think its up for discussion- but seeing as the majority of pakistani men would never dream of behaving in this manner it would be wrong to suggest this was a cultural norm.

 

[jiggajagga]

I have just seen a frightening newscast on the beeb that said the lawyers of the 9 men may be calling for a retrial as Nick Griffin of the BNP knew the result of the case before the judge did? ( Inside job?) Something to do with a tweet apparently?

 

[Grandma Death]

I have just seen a frightening newscast on the beeb that said the lawyers of the 9 men may be calling for a retrial as Nick Griffin of the BNP knew the result of the case before the judge did? ( Inside job?) Something to do with a tweet apparently?

Yeah this was on the news yesterday. A retrial wouldnt help-the evidence is pretty overwhelming from what I've read

 

[Spymaster]

I think its up for discussion- but seeing as the majority of pakistani men would never dream of behaving in this manner it would be wrong to suggest this was a cultural norm.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that it's a cultural norm, but when over 80% (83% - I just read your link) of a specific crime is perpetrated by a specific group you have to ask why. Idaho suggested poverty as a cause but none of these guys were particularly poor (shop owners, taxi bosses) though the girls they preyed on were.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I have just seen a frightening newscast on the beeb that said the lawyers of the 9 men may be calling for a retrial as Nick Griffin of the BNP knew the result of the case before the judge did? ( Inside job?) Something to do with a tweet apparently?

I read something about this. I hope the likely outcome will be proceedings for contempt of court.

 

[5t3IIa]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that it's a cultural norm, but when over 80% (83% - I just read your link) of a specific crime is perpetrated by a specific group you have to ask why. Idaho suggested poverty as a cause but none of these guys were particularly poor (shop owners, taxi bosses) though the girls they preyed on were.

"Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of The Ramadhan Foundation, said grooming was "a significant problem for the British Pakistani community".
"There is an over-representation [of Asian men] amongst recent convictions in the crime of on-street grooming [and] there should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals," he said.
"They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17996245

This geezer got poo-pooed on Today this morning. He said the older generation didn't see much wrong with white girls 'asking for it', whereas the younger did. There was a ton of tip-toeing going on.

 

[southside]

The cunts want burning.

 

[danny la rouge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003.

Whilst its not surprising to not find a thread on here about these men being found guilty (there really is a collective streak of cowardice running through U75 when it comes to topics like this)

Well, that's a new take on the old "what no thread on <insert story>? " fallacy .

First of all, if there's no thread on a current news item within 30 minutes of it breaking, then, I know, why not start one!

Secondly, there are threads on the story. Several, in fact.

 

[London_Calling]

I know men like this, and it's a problem in London too; these men were basically born and grew up in the Stone Age. Any other time in history save the last 20 years, most of them would be goat herders and would die in their late-40s in some God-forsaken village, never having travelled further than 20 miles. You can try and accept the values of another planet but it's what they know ...

 

[rover07]

Is it wrong to ponder that there may be a cultural element towards the treatment of women in general, but particularly non-muslim women, by these groups?

It's been suggested before.

 

[Grandma Death]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that it's a cultural norm, but when over 80% (83% - I just read your link) of a specific crime is perpetrated by a specific group you have to ask why. Idaho suggested poverty as a cause but none of these guys were particularly poor (shop owners, taxi bosses) though the girls they preyed on were.

Im not suggesting you are-Im saying that any discussions around culture can/tend to fall back on norms. Of course within the Islamic community there are attitudes to women that are questionable-but even then, some who think or hold these beliefs dont go on to be part of sexual exploitation rings. I just think its dodgy territory to start talking about cultural attitudes because its a sticky wicket and can feed into right wing agendas.

 

[Spymaster]

I just think its dodgy territory to start talking about cultural attitudes because its a sticky wicket and can feed into right wing agendas.

That's the problem.

There quite clearly is a cultural issue here but because we don't want to "feed into right-wing agendas" it's tiptoed around, which ........ feeds into right-wing agendas!

 

[manny-p]

That's the problem.

There quite clearly is a cultural issue here but because we don't want to "feed into right-wing agendas" it's tiptoed around, which ........ feeds into right-wing agendas!

agreed

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Im not suggesting you are-Im saying that any discussions around culture can/tend to fall back on norms. Of course within the Islamic community there are attitudes to women that are questionable-but even then, some who think or hold these beliefs dont go on to be part of sexual exploitation rings. I just think its dodgy territory to start talking about cultural attitudes because its a sticky wicket and can feed into right wing agendas.

If it (the existence of oppressive cultural attitudes) does have an impact and the left doesn't talk about it/acknowledge it for fear of its right wing potential, does it make the left or the right more credible?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[claphamboy]

Now of course a lot of you are just going to slate me for starting the thread rather than actually writing anything to do with the issue ....

Well, considering many have already commented on 'the issue' both on this thread, and the others, do excuse me if I just call you a twat of the highest order.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

That's the problem.

There quite clearly is a cultural issue here but because we don't want to "feed into right-wing agendas" it's tiptoed around, which ........ feeds into right-wing agendas!

A point a local beat copper once made to me about some types of crime in Lambeth...he said car crime is perpetrated by all sections of society but twocking is disproportionately white working-class teenage boys. Armed robbery is perpetrated by all races but armed street robbery is predominantly black teenage boys.

 

[Grandma Death]

That's the problem.

There quite clearly is a cultural issue here but because we don't want to "feed into right-wing agendas" it's tiptoed around, which ........ feeds into right-wing agendas!

Theres about 1.5 billion muslims in the world. Thats about a 5th of the worlds population. Within that there are the same strands and tensions as elsewhere: reformers, traditionalists, liberals, conservatives, rich, poor, minorities, majorities, rationalists, mystics, feminists, chauvinists, criminals and civic activists. You cant reduce that to one muslim 'culture' (again Im not suggesting you are). Of course commonalities exist and theres plenty that is objectionable but thats like all societies. At the end of the day its like all prejudices really-an individuals/groups behaviours somehow aggregate into the quality of that group.

 

[Grandma Death]

If it (the existence of oppressive cultural attitudes) does have an impact and the left doesn't talk about it/acknowledge it for fear of its right wing potential, does it make the left or the right more credible?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

No its makes it realistic in my opinion-for recognising there is no one homogeneous culture that we can attribute to one group-see my answer above.

 

[manny-p]

No its makes it realistic in my opinion-for recognising there is no one homogeneous culture that we can attribute to one group-see my answer above.

I would like to see the statistics broken down. But I believe they will show it iS pakistani asians whose origins are from the Mirpur region of Pakistan that are responsible for the majority of these grooming gang cases in the UK.