Rebuilding the Unions - the biggest task for the working class and the left?

[brasicritique]

In my experience most young people and people in general for that matter will not get involved in unions. The main reasons are 1 apathy,not thinking it will do any good. And 2 the kind of people who dominate union meetings. Not wishing to be nasty but sad old men,who have a lack of humility and personal hygiene problems.

The unions priority is the survival of the union and not as they have demonstrated they are really not bothered about wider issues of social justice. In my experience union reps are useless money grabbing morons maybe this is why apathy exists because it serves the interests of the left for it to exist as one might say they are only acting in their own class interests.

And lets be honest the unions are part of a wider problem in this country.Forget the x factor its all about the yes factor yes men and women running everything .

In my own humble opinion the unions link with the labour party should be severed in the name of democracy-as these boards demonstrate democracy as a concept is in slowly dying out and the sad thing about this is the left seem to think that they will benefit well guess what...

the more i visit these boards the more it becomes apparent that the left are no different from the bnp its all about control its all about telling people what to do instead of asking them what they want.

True about sad old men with a lack of humility and hygeine problems ...bit like some of the posters on these boards methinks...... but in the name of equality i feel that the sour old anti male battle axes indemic within the left
should also get a mention and share some of the blame

you know the type....they look like violen tpanda on a good day

 

[becky p]

the more i visit these boards the more it becomes apparent that the left are no different from the bnp its all about control its all about telling people what to do instead of asking them what they want.

True about sad old men with a lack of humility and hygeine problems ...bit like some of the posters on these boards methinks...... but in the name of equality i feel that the sour old anti male battle axes indemic within the left
should also get a mention and share some of the blame

you know the type....they look like violen tpanda on a good day

I think your wrong on this. I know your having a dig at 2 or 3 self obsessed bores on this,but they are probably a minority on the left. The sad thing is though its very much a case of "empty vessels making the most noise"
Nino etc probably do put a lot of people off contributing on urban.And yes there are other ninos out there who put people off.
But sad as they are they are not as bad as the BNP.
The BNP are a limited threat whereas nino and friends are not a threat to anyone.

 

[brasicritique]

But sad as they are they are not as bad as the BNP.

No they are worse

The BNP are a limited threat whereas nino and friends are not a threat to anyone.

Nino and his friends are more of a threat to the left than you give them credit for and as I have said on other threads the far right threat comes not so much from election victories but from there ideology taking a permanent hold. There are other factors that over time will also come into play for example a wider issues to consider would be globalisation and the politics of national identity especially when one considers how masculine identities are constructed and work in tandem with nationalism. Then there is the growth of an insecure under/working class with even more limited career and educational opportunities and this is before we even get to areas such as housing and the impact of EU economic migrants and perceptions of the Muslim community etc etc

I feel that the left have a very complacent attitude towards freedom , and democracy and a very low view of those from under/working-class backgrounds. To a lot of people from these backgrounds freedom and democracy do not exist anyway. What you never have you do not miss so why not become a fascist?

The bnp are not a threat to me It just saddens me to know that given the oportunity some very clever decent nice people would vote bnp if given the chance as they are now seen as the only party that represents white working class people. I understand what duriti baldwin and yourself are trying to achieve and I wish you luck but most of the threads on here are so politically tribal and anal and out of touch it is laughable

As these boards demonstrate there are no credible left wing ideas on how to tackle the problems facing people in the 21st century. Instead we get threads like is galloway the new hatton ffs I thought Urban was a forum to debate and generate cutting edge ideas not act as an online version of the land that time forgot.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

One of the things that struck me when I went to the PCS conference as a trainee delegate was how stuck in the 19th/20th century much of the rhetoric was.

And to be honest the language and tactics of the "established left" don't really seem to have moved with the time. (I'm thinking primarily of those oragnisations that sell a weekly red-topped newspaper and/or monthly journal.)

Comparing that to the pre-9/11 anti-capitalist movement that was vibrant, diverse and started to change the opinions of people as they became more aware of where their goods and services came from and how they were produced.

Going back to the PCS, I don't know enough about what goes on in the negotiation process with employers to know if both sides have got themselves caught between a rock and a hard place. What I do see as an employee are systems and processes agreed by both unions and employers that seem to be of benefit to no one. So many times I've heard employees (both members and non-members) express exasperation at some of the agreements that organisations have signed up to, making it impossible to bring in more efficient ways of working that have the support of the majority of employees there.

As a former union rep (I transferred down to London in December and had to relinquish my post of Branch Organiser back in Cambridge) I really do think that there needs to be a reappraisal of the union/employer relationship by both sides because at the moment the civil service is shedding huge numbers of jobs from a number which seems to have been picked out of the sky, and consultants and temps are being brought in to replace them at huge expense while disrupting the flow of work as they come and go. This is something that I would love the PCS to look into and perhaps fund an academic study as they have done before, looking at all of those issues, before finally coming to a solution as to how the bad stuff can be reduced and to look at policies that can, for example help diversify the organisation, help it deliver public services more efficiently, raise the esteem of civil servants and raise the regard the public should have for them.

 

[treelover]

I have to agree with that, leaving aside the efect of 911, it was the also dead hand of the 19 C left (who incidentially pre Seattle had ignored/ridiculed the anti-globalisation movement) which contributed to its decline, though now since
this G8 it may be on the up aqain.

Comparing that to the pre-9/11 anti-capitalist movement that was vibrant, diverse and started to change the opinions of people as they became more aware of where their goods and services came from and how they were produced.

 

[poster342002]

(and it's not good form to criticise another brethern in the bureaucratic cadre).

Are you a trade unionist or a freemason?

 

[butchersapron]

As a former union rep (I transferred down to London in December and had to relinquish my post of Branch Organiser back in Cambridge) I really do think that there needs to be a reappraisal of the union/employer relationship by both sides because at the moment the civil service is shedding huge numbers of jobs from a number which seems to have been picked out of the sky, and consultants and temps are being brought in to replace them at huge expense while disrupting the flow of work as they come and go. This is something that I would love the PCS to look into and perhaps fund an academic study as they have done before, looking at all of those issues, before finally coming to a solution as to how the bad stuff can be reduced and to look at policies that can, for example help diversify the organisation, help it deliver public services more efficiently, raise the esteem of civil servants and raise the regard the public should have for them.

Maybe they could work with businesses to help develop a national competitiveness plan?

 

[cockneyrebel]

I think it's ridiculous to compare the far left (with all their faults), with the BNP.

On the other hand I can understand peoples frustration with the far left and the unions. But the fact remains that the power of the working class will always primarily be in the work place. The problem with the anti-capitalist movement is that outside a couple of places (like Italy) it has never made serious links with the organised workers movement.

Until the workers movement is brought back under rank and file control then every campaign we fight will be extremley hard to win.

By the way the problems in the civil service with consultants and temps is equally true for local government.

PS Sorry about that Hatton/Galloway thread if it pisses people off!

 

[glenquagmire]

Just my tuppence worth on the lay / FTO "split"...

I'm a rep in a public services GMB branch. It's an ex-APEX branch and our branch officers are some of the worst, laziest, most incompetent and "apolitical" (i.e. right wing) imaginable. I don't know when they were last elected as there have been no branch meetings since I joined the branch 15 months ago, and the last stewards' meeting was in October.

The local organisers, on the other hand, are a bunch of really sound, active, politically-minded and committed activists. In this particular case they are most often frustrated in reinvigorating the union by certain lay officials.

It's worth pointing out that 95% of my duties as a union rep do not require any political thinking: disciplinaries, absence review hearings, scrutinising new policies etc. We have members meetings every couple of months and they are entirely dominated by local issues.

Without branch meetings (and I have asked the Branch Sec repeatedly to no end) we can't take any official positions, affiliate or support any campaigns.

I know that what would attract more people - especially those of my generation who often don't even know what a trade union is - is a combination of more active grass-roots work (I've doubled membership here in a year simply by being around, being on hand to answer questions, giving out a few forms etc) AND seeing the union regionally and nationally fighting for and winning disputes. I spoke to that end at a fringe meeting at GMB Congress last week but it'll take more than that to change things...

 

[cockneyrebel]

Maybe they could work with businesses to help develop a national competitiveness plan?

I'm a rep in a public services GMB branch. It's an ex-APEX branch and our branch officers are some of the worst, laziest, most incompetent and "apolitical" (i.e. right wing) imaginable. I don't know when they were last elected as there have been no branch meetings since I joined the branch 15 months ago, and the last stewards' meeting was in October.

An all too familiar story. Our AGM has about 40 people turn up (out of 3500 members) and there are no stewards meetings and the branch officials are totally unaccountable.

I know that what would attract more people - especially those of my generation who often don't even know what a trade union is - is a combination of more active grass-roots work (I've doubled membership here in a year simply by being around, being on hand to answer questions, giving out a few forms etc) AND seeing the union regionally and nationally fighting for and winning disputes. I spoke to that end at a fringe meeting at GMB Congress last week but it'll take more than that to change things...

Agree with all of that and well done for the work you've done.

 

[poster342002]

One of the things that's needed, imo, is an end to the absurd principle of "elected unopposed" - which people who gain office under such circumstances often seem to think means "elected by 100% of the vote". It's actually a totally meaningless, hollow victory.

In it's place should be some kind of default affirmative ballot whenever only one person is standing for a position - sort of "do you want such-and-such as your elected rep - YES or NO?". This would force candidates to explain and justify their candidature to the membership instead of simply hanging on to their position year after year.

 

[tbaldwin]

I have been involved in union activity for years and possibly now am in a key union position to have an impact. All the time remembering that its is the view and work of the members that is the critical point to any success.

I am in PCS but wonder (particularly the youth point earlier) whether for the working class and the left that maybe the big push could be elsewhere and not in the workplace.

A contradiction I am sure because I believe that union activity and industrial action can change a person's thinking but we must realise that it could be other issues that are the spark to move people in a leftward direction.

Talked to a woman i know works as a rep for unison in a company of over 1,000 people. They get 2 people coming to their meetings....She complained to mee that she is always having to represent people but nobody ever turns up to her meetings...
People just dont seem to think being active in a union is worth it. And the few that do seem to put others off.

 

[Soul On Ice]

Are you a trade unionist or a freemason?

Do you not understand irony? Am staggered that you wish to show yourself up to be so humourless and priggish.

 

[rauscher]

Trade unions are not the road to revolution. Look back to the miners strike in the 1980's. Thatcher could have been defeated but the trade unions are controled by the career-bureaucrats. You cannot change this - WP now PR - has been trying for more than 30 years. Do you not see that this strategy has failed time after time? You blame misleadership but the misleaders are simply a reflection of the conservatism or lack of interest of the membership.

PR continue to spout the same things they have been saying since about 1972 without ever influencing anyone (beyond a handfull of members).

Trade unions are at best about increasing wages and defending working conditions. They have nothing to do with changing society.

The continued isolation of a group like PR can only lead to the conclusion that their view, that the working class is a revolutionary class that merely requires the correct leadership, is fundamentally mistaken.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Talked to a woman i know works as a rep for unison in a company of over 1,000 people. They get 2 people coming to their meetings....She complained to mee that she is always having to represent people but nobody ever turns up to her meetings...
People just dont seem to think being active in a union is worth it. And the few that do seem to put others off.

Thats exactly what happens in my branch. I'm making some inroads though and have badgered a relatively freindly union bod into setting up a meeting so that I can put my ideas over.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Maybe they could work with businesses to help develop a national competitiveness plan?

The TUC have already beaten you to it.

http://www.amicustheunion.org/Default.aspx?page=3175

I have issues with some of the practices big businesses have. I've been screwed over by two of the biggest companies in the country before I moved into the public sector. It was one such experience at that made me decide that the first thing I had to do upon joining was to join a trade union and get involved.

As Rauscher says, trade unions are not the road to revolution. They may have had a role to play 100 years ago but the 19th century rhetoric about "The Party for Working Socialism being against the imperialistic oppression of the capitalistic bosses that seek to repress the desires of the working classes as they seek to remove the chains of their oppression" really doesn't do it for people. If it did, the revolution would have happened ages ago.

My other half told me that the BNP did a whole series of activities (completely staged) in her home town that enabled their candidate to get elected in Leicestershire. They had people going around cleaning up areas, tidying up wasteland and being seen to be doing some good to a local community, even though their messages and manifestos are quite the opposite. With the exception of Galloway, most of the people from the left of Labour who have got elected have had a fairly strong local presence and, while aligning themselves with broader international campaigns, have had strong links to local issues and campaigns, and have shown themselves to be listening to local people and engaging with them, rather than preaching from the pulpit of student politics.

The SWP student society recruits hundreds of people at universities every autumn. What happens to all of these members? Do they stay? Do they leave? If they do leave, why do they leave?

Yes, ultimately most of us want to make the world a better place not just for us as individuals, but for the rest of society, be it village, town, city, country or planet. I want to help make the world and society a better place. That's why I chose to work in the public sector. I would like to work with people who want to help in those endeavours. That is also why I am in a trade union.

It disheartens me when I see the widespread apathy within parts of the union movement but I don't think the old left-right split is something that helps any of us.

Remember the chant :"The workers united, will never be defeated."

As for where people stand on the political compass...try http://www.politicalcompass.org/

 

[butchersapron]

Point made uh...dude.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Point made uh...dude.

Sorry Torres, I didn't mean to go on a "rant" - a lot of union-related frustrations sort of...all came out at once

 

[treelover]

for me, the unions and the wider left has to go 'back to basics' as it were:
For example, there have been no campaigns to protect old people living in care homes, facing abuse and neglect, no campaigns for those in the private rented sector, who face corrupt and often abusive landlords. No big marches and campaigns for the numerous young people who are dying in prison, often taking their own lives at painfully young ages, instead the left has almost fetishised cultural issues such as the veil or conducted endlessly protracted marches ‘against the war’. Imo, any new left project has to move away from 19th century ideas of the 'worker' and go back to basics: While of course it should work within the unions, it should also fight for/with those at the bottom: those on sink estates, those on benefits or pushed into low skill New Deal programmes or minimum wages, unfortunately this is often anethma to many on the left, who largely ignore these concerns as they are not ‘part of the programme’ or in some cases just don’t know what life is really like.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

It does make me wonder why it's not the modern day sweatshops - supermarkets and call-centres that are not regularly in the news regarding strikes and industrial action. Is it because the public sector is seen as a soft touch? Is it because the 19th century of "the workers" does not connect with the readers of celebrity magazines? Is it because being a "celebrity" in the self-obsessed culture we have is seen as a way out for the individual irrespective of what happens to the rest?

 

[fanciful]

Where as Rauscher of course has given up on the working class being a revolutionary class...in favour of....zilch.
Cockney is dead right about the necessity of rebuilding the working class in the unions, unfortunately the situation in the UK is particularly bad, not just in the unions but in the collapse of the anti-cap movement. I've just come back from Germany and I was bowled over by the size and militancy of the movement there. What's needed is to take that energy into the organised working class.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Where as Rauscher of course has given up on the working class being a revolutionary class...in favour of....zilch.
Cockney is dead right about the necessity of rebuilding the working class in the unions, unfortunately the situation in the UK is particularly bad, not just in the unions but in the collapse of the anti-cap movement. I've just come back from Germany and I was bowled over by the size and militancy of the movement there. What's needed is to take that energy into the organised working class.

All good and well as that sort of motivation is contageous. However, is the mindset of the Germans the same as us or are there differences? My experiences of the Germans has been very positive in terms of their open-mindedness, education and positivity. However, I do have concerns as to whether this transfers across easily into a celebrity-obsessed society where Paris Hilton makes more column inches than the protests at the G8. Again, I would like to see the rebuilding process of the unions begin in the supermarkets and the call centres.

 

[audiotech]

for me, the unions and the wider left has to go 'back to basics' as it were:
For example, there have been no campaigns to protect old people living in care homes, facing abuse and neglect,

Thankfully, very few older people are abused and neglected in care homes, where those employed: nurses, care and maintenance staff work hard. They also show respect and dignity to older people on a daily basis.

Care homes these days are rigourlessly inspected.

It's older people living on their own, in their own homes and facing a life of lonely isolation that should be a priority. Also too, the 20 percent of older people who live in poverty.

 

[butchersapron]

Thankfully, very few older people are abused and neglected in care homes, where those employed: nurses, care and maintenance staff work hard. They also show respect and dignity to older people on a daily basis.

Care homes these days are rigourlessly inspected.

It's older people living on their own, in their own homes and facing a life of lonely isolation that should be a priority. Also too, the 20 percent of older people who live in poverty.

Not good timing, from todays paper:

700,000 elderly people 'are being abused'

More than 700,000 elderly people are subjected to abuse in their own homes or privately run nursing homes, according to the results of a new study to be published this week.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

It's older people living on their own, in their own homes and facing a life of lonely isolation that should be a priority. Also too, the 20 percent of older people who live in poverty.

It's the living on their own that increases the risk of abuse. Some of the fly-on-the wall stuff is horrifying which is why I am glad that my late grandparents never ended up in a care home. They did have home-help but they also had me living with them for some of their final years leaving and entering at random times of the day, reducing the risk of it happening.

It comes back down to community. Once the elderly are seen to be a liability it all goes down hill. For me, the elderly are a community asset - and all-too-often a wasted asset who do not have the opportunity to contribute to society.

When I did a project with the Prince's Trust the group I was part of, most of whom were from very disadvantaged backgrounds and many having been in trouble with the law, had a great time with the elderly we met. We all went on a day out to Ely Cathedral and the elderly were able to connect with these teenagers in a way that no school teacher seemed able to.

Coming back to the Unions, are unions part of, and seen to be part of people's communities?

 

[bluestreak]

employers appear too strong, unions too weak. i personally haven't had any protection from any union i've ever been a member of from SU up, and i've known people let down time adn time again by their unions. sadly only strong unions are effective. we've employer-friendly laws and employer-friendly unions and the workers get screwed either way. most people reckon they might as well save the subs for beer money. personally whenever i have a permanent job i join a union and try and get others to as well but what else can you do? i'd love to hear good ideas.

 

[fanciful]

Well yes I agree, the grip of neo-liberal selfish and general unpleasantness in the UK means that the German situation does not automatically transfer to the UK, far from it in fact. The UK anti-cap movement isn't even a pale shadow of the German one, but it does provide an inspiring example if nothing else.

 

[audiotech]

Not good timing, from todays paper:

700,000 elderly people 'are being abused'

More than 700,000 elderly people are subjected to abuse in their own homes or privately run nursing homes, according to the results of a new study to be published this week.

It is important to raise this issue as often as possible. A service that is often given scant attention to. After all, this was the first report in ten years on the subject.

It is no surprise to see that 'the rate of violence, bullying and neglect is significantly higher than was thought', as again, not a service that is given much of a priority.

The report doesn't take anything away from what I stated, that the majority of abuse affects those in their own homes and that incidences of serious abuse is rare. It also doesn't take away from the fact that the vast majority of staff who work in this setting do show respect and dignity to older people, with many reporting signs of neglect and abuse to the authorities.

The unions could indeed have a role to play here, recruiting care-workers and working with members, to ensure that those who own and run care-homes act in the interests of those who they are duty bound to look after.

 

[butchersapron]

It is important to raise this issue as often as possible. A service that is often given scant attention to. Afterall, this was the first report in ten years on the suject.

It is no suprise to see that 'the rate of violence, bullying and neglect is significantly higher than was thought', as again, not a service that is given much of a priority.

The report doesn't take anything away from what I stated, that the majority of abuse affects those in their own homes and that the incidences of serious abuse is rare. It also doesn't take away from the fact that the vast majority of staff who work in this setting do show respect and dignity to older people, with many reporting signs of neglect and abuse of older people to the authorities.

The unions could indeed have a role to play here, recruiting care-workers and working with members to ensure that those who own and run care-homes act in the interests of those who they are duty bound to look after.

Well, the full report hasn't been published yet -this is a preliminary summary, so i think that you're rather jumping the gun in saying that it finds that the majority of abuse takes place in private homes - it doesn't actually say anything like that (unless you have abother different link, that would be good) or indicate that it will. In fact, tearing up the adult protection system as it's failing so badly doesn't sound very positive at all to me. It sounds like they think things are not working so nicely.

And let's get this clear now, pointing out various failings in the system does not mean that abusing or neglecting clients/residents/patients in the system is the normal activity of the workers in that same system.

edit: all that said, this is not an issue to have a silly pissy argument about.

 

[audiotech]

Well, the full report hasn't been published yet -this is a preliminary summary, so i think that you're rather jumping the gun in saying that it finds that the majority of abuse takes place in private homes - it doesn't actually say anything like that (unless you have abother different link, that would be good) or indicate that it will. In fact, tearing up the adult protection system as it's failing so badly doesn't sound very positive at all to me. It sounds like they think things are not working so nicely.

And let's get this clear now, pointing out various failings in the system does not mean that abusing or neglecting clients/residents/patients in the system is the normal activity of the workers in that same system.

edit: all that said, this is not an issue to have a silly pissy argument about.

I wasn't having a "pissy argument", but judging you by your past (and presently it seems?) history here in another guise, you probably were/are.

I'm not having a "pissy argument" this time either, as I need to address your numerous misquotes, but first, I'm not "jumping the gun" on this report. I work in this sector and know something about this issue.

I didn't say the majority of abuse takes place in "private homes". I said their "own homes". I also never said anything about "tearing up the adult protection system". I agree, as Age Concern do, that it needs strenghthening, with more awareness and better training for key workers.