Rebuilding the Unions - the biggest task for the working class and the left?

[treelover]

Theres MC5 thinking about the producers again, rather than the clients


btw , Prince absolutely spot on

It comes back down to community. Once the elderly are seen to be a liability it all goes down hill. For me, the elderly are a community asset - and all-too-often a wasted asset who do not have the opportunity to contribute to society.

 

[biff curtains]

The problem with an argument that starts "The elderly need the opportunity to contribute to society," is that it generally leads to someone talking about scrapping pensions or at least pushing them to later in life.

The best way to help the elderly would be higher pensions, so they don't have money worries.

 

[butchersapron]

I wasn't having a "pissy argument", but judging you by your past (and presently it seems?) history here in another guise, you probably were/are.

I'm not having a "pissy argument" this time either, as I need to address your numerous misquotes, but first, I'm not "jumping the gun" on this report. I work in this sector and know something about this issue.

I didn't say the majority of abuse takes place in "private homes". I said their "own homes". I also never said anything about "tearing up the adult protection system". I agree, as Age Concern do, that it needs strenghthening, with more awareness and better training for key workers.

Good lord. You said something very specific, embrassingky for you you chose the wrong day to quit sniffing glue as the Institute of Gerontology had published the preliminary findings of a report into the treatment of the elderly that totally contradicted your point. I didn't make a thing put of it beyond pointing out the reports existense and saying that there was no need for a barney about it - i gave you room to back out with no bother, but instead you claimed that the report backed up your points, namely that the majority of abuse takes place in the home (that's what i meant by 'private homes' - outside of care homes- not homes owned ouright by the victim). But the prelim summary does nothing of the sort, it doesn't mention anything like that.

As for "tearing up the adult protection system", if you'd read the bloody link that we're tlaking about you'd surely know that it exactly what the govt is considering doing as a direct result of the finding sof this report. That's a quote from the article - not from you.

Now, i think i'm going to leave this issue as it's largely OT.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Trade unions are not the road to revolution. Look back to the miners strike in the 1980's. Thatcher could have been defeated but the trade unions are controled by the career-bureaucrats. You cannot change this - WP now PR - has been trying for more than 30 years. Do you not see that this strategy has failed time after time? You blame misleadership but the misleaders are simply a reflection of the conservatism or lack of interest of the membership.

PR continue to spout the same things they have been saying since about 1972 without ever influencing anyone (beyond a handfull of members).

Trade unions are at best about increasing wages and defending working conditions. They have nothing to do with changing society.

The continued isolation of a group like PR can only lead to the conclusion that their view, that the working class is a revolutionary class that merely requires the correct leadership, is fundamentally mistaken.

Wow what was this all about

Where have I said that trade unions are the "the road to revolution", indeed I doubt you'd struggle to find a revolutionary group out there who says that. But the struggles that go on in the work place are the basis for working class power so the more rank and file control there is the better and until there is rank and file control then bureaucrats will find it far easier to sell out struggles. Also while I agree with treelover that community campaigns are important I just think without the power of the organised working class behind those campaigns then they will be extremely difficult to win.

You blame misleadership but the misleaders are simply a reflection of the conservatism or lack of interest of the membership.

Actually it is WPs position to just say "crisis of leadership". PRs view and my own view is far more nuanced than that. Of course the leaderships of the unions do hold back struggle but you also have to take into account the the global economic situation and changes in the working class (see the article in PR4 the state of the working class in Britain).

The continued isolation of a group like PR can only lead to the conclusion that their view, that the working class is a revolutionary class that merely requires the correct leadership, is fundamentally mistaken

Again this is not PRs view. Also I agree that PRs influence has been fuck all on the wider scale of things, but then that goes for the whole revolutionary left so you might as well write of revolutionary politics from that point of view.

 

[cockneyrebel]

As for the issue of the elderly there are undoubtedly problems in care homes and in hospitals. However given that wages and workers conditions in care homes have been slashed (which went hand in hand with privatisation), that should come as no surprise.

 

[butchersapron]

Agreed, which is why i wanted to make it 100% clear that failings in the system does not mean that abusing or neglecting clients/residents/patients in the system is the normal activity of the workers in that same system. Incidentally thuis report only covers private care homes. But as i said OT.

 

[poster342002]

.

 

[poster342002]

Agreed, which is why i wanted to make it 100% clear that failings in the system does not mean that abusing or neglecting clients/residents/patients in the system is the normal activity of the workers in that same system. Incidentally thuis report only covers private care homes. But as i said OT.

No, but the danger lies in the "closing ranks" factor. By that I mean where you get somebody acting corruptly (in any proffession), but all their colleagues turn a blind eye and close ranks to defend the wrongdoer when a complaint is made (my profession, right or wrong type-crap).

 

[nino_savatte]

2) I think it is a mistake to concentrate on unions at the expense of communities .. i think the left ( particularly the SW) make a major mistake ( and misunderstanding on marxism) when the ignore communities as they do .. indeed i think any forward motion will come from the two things going hand in hand

It depends on what you mean by the word "community". That word tends to get used in the narrowest of senses. Unions are communities and they form part of larger communities.

I think it is important to focus on unions and to try and wrest control of them from the fat cats and careerists, lest they will go down the same path as the unions have done in the US.

 

[poster342002]

I think it is important to focus on unions and to try and wrest control of them from the fat cats and careerists, lest they will go down the same path as the unions have done in the US.

Something about bolting horses and stable doors comes to mind...

 

[nino_savatte]

Something about bolting horses and stable doors comes to mind...

Ah, nothing like defeatism- eh?

 

[poster342002]

Ah, nothing like defeatism- eh?

Ah, nothing like flogging that same dead horse another few more times- eh? You never know - it might get up and move, so let's not be negative and defeatist about it, yeah?

 

[nino_savatte]

Ah, nothing like flogging that same dead horse another few more times- eh? You never know - it might get up and move, so let's not be negative and defeatist about it, yeah?

You what?

Something about "bread, butter and the right side" comes to mind here.

 

[poster342002]

You what?

Something about "bread, butter and the right side" comes to mind here.

Something about wild geese and chasing comes to mind here.

 

[nino_savatte]

Something about wild geese and chasing comes to mind here.

Something about "talking" and "arse" comes to mind here.

 

[audiotech]

Good lord. You said something very specific, embrassingky for you you chose the wrong day to quit sniffing glue as the Institute of Gerontology had published the preliminary findings of a report into the treatment of the elderly that totally contradicted your point. I didn't make a thing put of it beyond pointing out the reports existense and saying that there was no need for a barney about it - i gave you room to back out with no bother, but instead you claimed that the report backed up your points, namely that the majority of abuse takes place in the home (that's what i meant by 'private homes' - outside of care homes- not homes owned ouright by the victim). But the prelim summary does nothing of the sort, it doesn't mention anything like that.

No? It states the very point I was making in the first line of that article:

More than 700,000 elderly people are subjected to abuse in their own homes..

As for "tearing up the adult protection system", if you'd read the bloody link that we're tlaking about you'd surely know that it exactly what the govt is considering doing as a direct result of the finding sof this report. That's a quote from the article - not from you.

Now, i think i'm going to leave this issue as it's largely OT.

I've read it, clearly you have misread the article. There is no mention of "tearing up the adult protection system", it actually states that "ministers are planning an overhaul of the adult protection system" - a considerable difference.

I would also appreciate very much if you would in future cut out the bang out of order comments similar to those at the start of your "pissy argument" thanks.

 

[brasicritique]

for me, the unions and the wider left has to go 'back to basics' as it were:
For example, there have been no campaigns to protect old people living in care homes, facing abuse and neglect, no campaigns for those in the private rented sector, who face corrupt and often abusive landlords. No big marches and campaigns for the numerous young people who are dying in prison, often taking their own lives at painfully young ages, instead the left has almost fetishised cultural issues such as the veil or conducted endlessly protracted marches ‘against the war’. Imo, any new left project has to move away from 19th century ideas of the 'worker' and go back to basics: While of course it should work within the unions, it should also fight for/with those at the bottom: those on sink estates, those on benefits or pushed into low skill New Deal programmes or minimum wages, unfortunately this is often anethma to many on the left, who largely ignore these concerns as they are not ‘part of the programme’ or in some cases just don’t know what life is really like.

Top post

 

[brasicritique]

It depends on what you mean by the word "community". That word tends to get used in the narrowest of senses..

Persecution complex returns yet again you nazi Duruti

Unions are communities and they form part of larger communities..

The only community the unions belong to is that of the unions and the labour party

I think it is important to focus on unions and to try and wrest control of them from the fat cats and careerists, lest they will go down the same path as the unions have done in the US..

Yawn. Already down the same path as the U.S

 

[butchersapron]

No? It states the very point I was making in the first line of that article:

More than 700,000 elderly people are subjected to abuse in their own homes..

Do you really want to do this? You know where it'll end. What did the the quote go on to say? I mean the exact bit that you've chosen to excise? I'll tell you - it said:

"More than 700,000 elderly people are subjected to abuse in their own homes or privately run nursing homes, according to the results of a new study to be published this week."

That's the most pathetic and dishonest quoting that i think i've ever seen

I've read it, clearly you have misread the article. There is no mention of "tearing up the adult protection system", it actually states that "ministers are planning an overhaul of the adult protection system" - a considerable difference.

Even worse - first you claim that i said that you'd said it, now you're claiming that there's no similarity between "tearing up the adult protection system" and "ministers are planning an overhaul of the adult protection system". At least you've read the thing before posting about is this time. Well done.

I would also appreciate very much if you would in future cut out the bang out of order comments similar to those at the start of your "pissy argument" thanks.

Like what? After your utterly hilarious and no-shame quoting as exposed in the firsr para of this reply do you really think that you've got a leg to stand on?

For shame. You should report yourself for that you know.

 

[nino_savatte]

Persecution complex returns yet again you nazi Duruti



The only community the unions belong to is that of the unions and the labour party



Yawn. Already down the same path as the U.S

Wtf are you talking about? You don't bother reading posts properly - do you? There are many communities, perhaps you've not considered that and decided, due to a combination of paranoia, arrogance and personal antipathy, that you'd chuck that phrase out. Pity it means fuck all contextually speaking.

"Persecution complex"? Where, in my post, have I indicated that I am being "persecuted" ? You're detached from reality, pal.

 

[brasicritique]

It depends on what you mean by the word "community". That word tends to get used in the narrowest of senses..

care to elaborate? More likely you will do as you always do -ignore in fact i surprise myself that i even bother reading your posts but its a dirty job an somebody got to do it...not everyone runs away to an ignore list.....

Btw i think any poster with any sense would be able to detect the recurring theme of all your posts nino -duriti becky balders=nazis

 

[brasicritique]

what do you mean by community peoples poet?

 

[nino_savatte]

It depends on what you mean by the word "community". That word tends to get used in the narrowest of senses..

care to elaborate? More likely you will do as you always do -ignore in fact i surprise myself that i even bother reading your posts but its a dirty job an somebody got to do it...not everyone runs away to an ignore list.....

Btw i think any poster with any sense would be able to detect the recurring theme of all your posts nino -duriti becky balders=nazis

It does get used in a very narrow way. People talk about the "gay community" as if all gays and lesbians were some sort of homogeneous group. Perhaps you never thought of that but then, your sole aim was to take a swipe at me - wasn't it?

You're not only thick as pigshit, you can't read and comprehend at the same time.

You're paranoid too.

 

[butchersapron]

It depends on what you mean by the word "community". That word tends to get used in the narrowest of senses..

care to elaborate? More likely you will do as you always do -ignore in fact i surprise myself that i even bother reading your posts but its a dirty job an somebody got to do it...not everyone runs away to an ignore list.....

Btw i think any poster with any sense would be able to detect the recurring theme of all your posts nino -duriti becky balders=nazis

Don't forget me i'm red action nazi-trot-troll-bully whose pretending to be someone else.

 

[nino_savatte]

what do you mean by community peoples poet?

What do you mean by "community", dickhead?

 

[nino_savatte]

Don't forget me i'm rad action nazi-trot-troll-bully whose pretending to be someone else.

Nah, you're just a bully who is in love with his own thoughts and ideas. You're also something of a hypocrite...would you like me to spell that out for you, butchers?

 

[butchersapron]

Yes i would nino_savatte. Thanks.

 

[audiotech]

Do you really want to do this? You know where it'll end. What did the the quote go on to say? I mean the exact bit that you've chosen to excise? I'll tell you - it said:

"More than 700,000 elderly people are subjected to abuse in their own homes or privately run nursing homes, according to the results of a new study to be published this week."

That's the most pathetic and dishonest quoting that i think i've ever seen

Not dishonest at all and you know it. Your playing your dumb games as usual Butchers.

As I said, I work in the sector and I know that most abuse does take place in the individual homes of older people, by family members and other people they know, includng carers.

The abuse of older people can take many forms - financial, physical, psychological and sexual.

Nevertheless, I recognise that abuse does take place in privately run homes, but again these are rigourlessly inspected. The individual, private homes of older people are not.

Because the private homes of older people are rigourlessly inspected and because most older people do live in their own homes, means that there is an increased likelihood of abuse of older people in their own homes compared to privately run care homes.

Even worse - first you claim that i said that you'd said it, now you're claiming that there's no similarity between "tearing up the adult protection system" and "ministers are planning an overhaul of the adult protection system". At least you've read the thing before posting about is this time. Well done.

Well, your writing style is so clumsy it looked as though you were attributing those words to me. The words "tearing up" don't even exist in that article so, to accuse me of not reading something is a bit rich.

Anyway, there is no similarity between "tearing" something "up" and "planning an overall" - simple as.

Like what? After your utterly hilarious and no-shame quoting as exposed in the firsr para of this reply do you really think that you've got a leg to stand on?

For shame. You should report yourself for that you know.

The words I put quotation marks around actually exist as a sentence in that article, I don't make 'em up as you do.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Community can be the warmly persuasive word to describe an existing set of relationships, or the warmly persuasive word to describe an alternative set of relationships. What is most important, perhaps, is that unlike all other terms of social organization...it never seems to be used unfavorably, and never to be given any positive opposing or distinguishing term.​

Raymond Williams, Keywords (1973, p. 76).​

Which is why people make all sorts of appeals to communities which don't really exist, such as the 'community of nations'. To use the same word, without explanation or qualification, to describe things as different as a smallish group of people with a shared history and specific geographical location (a local community), the set of some but by no means all nation states (the community of nations), and a diverse collection of associations of working people (the TUC as a community?) wouldn't seem to be very useful...unless your intention is to bask in some of the 'warmth' that Williams correctly identifies community as having.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. anybody remember the community charge...even the warm persuasion of the c word couldn't make that one a runner.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes i would nino_savatte. Thanks.

That means posting up somethign that you said to me on MATB...are you sure? Oh and you also called me "Chimp"...remember? You realise how words like "monkey" and "chimp" are used within a racial context - non?

I've noticed that you only quote those posters with whom you have some sort of affinity...in other words, fellow travellers.

Your reply is likely to be as smug and as self satisfied as the others.