Proportional representation -- yea or nay?

[butchersapron]

A proper national PR system would let me vote Green at the general election, right now I cannot even waste my vote on them because no Green candidate was standing where I vote.

What's got to do with my point?

 

[butchersapron]

so what was the point?

how people voted in the election should in no way be taken as reflecting their opinion on PR, as it was just one among many factors that influenced people's voting choice.

making out that this election says anything about whether or not people want electoral reform is just crap, as is attempting to work out where people put it on a notional list of priorities.

you can fuck right off with your as well btw

Except for all those people like the one that just followed you saying they only voted for the whig-tories to get PR. Great timing.

It's amazing how PR is both centrally important to lib-dem voters and not that important to them at all. Sums these janus freaks up. Or their spinners anyway.

 

[TAE]

What's got to do with my point?

Just that my motivation for PR is not what you were suggesting and I don't think I'm the only Lib Dem voter who thinks that way.

Actually my reply supports your view that PR could be bad for the Lib Dems.

However, the Lib Dem vote would have to drop by more than half for them to suffer under PR, as even just 12% should get them over 70 seats.

 

[free spirit]

Regionally based immigration permits combined with a National Border Force to impose restrictions = pass laws. It's black and white. (Huh huh)

Are there no depths to which you won't go?

spot the difference

The Pass Laws Act 1952 made it compulsory for all black South Africans over the age of 16 to carry a "pass book" at all times. The law stipulated where, when, and for how long a person could remain. This pass was also known as a dompas.
The document was similar to an internal passport, containing details on the bearer such as their fingerprints, photograph, the name of his/her employer, his/her address, how long the bearer had been employed, as well as other identification information. Employers often entered a behavioural evaluation, on the conduct of the pass holder.
An employer was defined under the law and could be only a white person. The pass also documented permission requested and denied or granted to be in a certain region and the reason for seeking such permission. Under the terms of the law, any governmental employee could strike out such entries, basically canceling the permission to remain in the area.
A pass book without a valid entry then allowed officials to arrest and imprison the bearer of the pass. These passes often became the most despised symbols of apartheid. The resistance to the Pass Law led to many thousands of arrests and was the spark that ignited the Sharpeville Massacre on 21 March 1960, and led to the arrest of Robert Sobukwe on that same date

all that applied to the entire non white population of the country, vs an amendment to the current points based system for immigration that would restrict economic migrants to only being allowed to work in certain specified regions that would be policed in the same way that the current points based immigration system is policed- ie checks on employers records, and prosecution of employers for employing people illegally.

I'd like to see more details about this policy before properly making my mind up about it, but it's fuck all like the south african pass laws.

 

[free spirit]

Except for all those people like the one that just followed you saying they only voted for the whig-tories to get PR. Great timing.

It's amazing how PR is both centrally important to lib-dem voters and not that important to them at all. Sums these janus freaks up. Or their spinners anyway.

yes a fair few people voted lib dem specifically because of PR, but this says nothing at all about what those who voted for other parties thought about the issue.

It's not really a hard concept to grasp, so I presume you're still on a wind up.

 

[butchersapron]

spot the difference

all that applied to the entire non white population of the country, vs an amendment to the current points based system for immigration that would restrict economic migrants to only being allowed to work in certain specified regions that would be policed in the same way that the current points based immigration system is policed- ie checks on employers records, and prosecution of employers for employing people illegally.

I'd like to see more details about this policy before properly making my mind up about it, but it's fuck all like the south african pass laws.

Pass laws can take many forms, they don't need to be exact copies of those introduced in apartheid South Africa. An internal border police to check these people aren't working in areas they shouldn't be? That's an effective pass law given they're tied to that workplace. In the USSR they called this form of pass law a workbook.

 

[TAE]

My commedy example has come true, Labour won ALL the seats with less than 60% of the cast votes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/council/html/3892.stm
http://www.barking-dagenham.gov.uk/9-democracy/elections/results/elect-local-10.cfm

Labour: 58%
Conservative: 15%
Liberal Democrat: 6%
British National Party: 16%
Independents: 3%
Other: 2%

 

[free spirit]

Pass laws can take many forms, they don't need to be exact copies of those introduced in apartheid South Africa. An internal border police to check these people aren't working in areas they shouldn't be? That's an effective pass law given they're tied to that workplace. In the USSR they called this form of pass law a workbook.

if you don't mean pass laws, then don't say it. You know full well that anyone reading it is going to associate it with the south african pass laws.

 

[butchersapron]

I do mean pass laws. And I do mean south African style pass laws. That's exactly the association i sought to forge in peoples minds.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

They have this internal pass system in Cuba too. You need permission to move town there. I don't see how this is different, except that in Cuba it applies only to citizens and not to foreigners, whereas here it would apply only to foreigners and not to citizens. Seems fair enough to call that a pass law.

Hard to argue that it is not an authoritarian policy.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The only real difference with the SA model is that the Libdem's proposed pass laws would only effect a minority of the population - those that look or sound like migrant workers.

 

[free spirit]

I do mean pass laws. And I do mean south African style pass laws. That's exactly the association i sought to forge in peoples minds.

false scare tactics then.

 

[the button]

Pass laws can take many forms, they don't need to be exact copies of those introduced in apartheid South Africa. An internal border police to check these people aren't working in areas they shouldn't be? That's an effective pass law given they're tied to that workplace. In the USSR they called this form of pass law a workbook.

There's a similar system in operation in China, which divides the population into two categories -- urban and agricultural, with restricted rights and access to services for rural workers who attempt to move to the cities.

 

[cesare]

This is how Australia deals with it and it appears to work reasonably well.

Works reasonably well across Europe too.

 

[butchersapron]

false scare tactics then.

Nope. That'd you'd drag yourself down and defend this shit says all i need to know.

 

[cesare]

The only real difference with the SA model is that the Libdem's proposed pass laws would only effect a minority of the population - those that look or sound like migrant workers.

And only those from outside EU/accession states.

 

[butchersapron]

There's a similar system in operation in China, which divides the population into two categories -- urban and agricultural, with restricted rights and access to services for rural workers who attempt to move to the cities.

I can see this tying up with the tories min wage policy very well.

 

[free spirit]

The only real difference with the SA model is that the Libdem's proposed pass laws would only effect a minority of the population - those that look or sound like migrant workers.

the only real difference?

these laws would apply only to the region economic migrants are allowed to work in.

it doesn't restrict movement, it doesn't restrict where people can live within those regions, it doesn't require immigrants to carry a pass on them at all times, it doesn't give the police the power to demand to see that pass at all times, in fact it would only give powers to check people's eligibility to work in an area through their employers records (then followed up by verification with the original documents if necessary), the same way that the current points system works.

just a little bit different to the pass laws.

As I said above, I'm not entirely sure about his idea myself, and would like to see full details of how it would work, but making them out to be equivalent to the pass laws is complete bullshit.

 

[Tacita]

spot the difference

not enough to make it look ok

 

[free spirit]

Nope. That'd you'd drag yourself down and defend this shit says all i need to know.

I've not made up my mind either way on it as I've not seen enough details about it to be able to fully make up my mind. I have seen enough to know that your comparison with the south african pass laws is way off the mark, and basically you just mudslinging, so yes I'll respond to that.

 

[free spirit]

not enough to make it look ok

bare in mind that the alternative on offer from labour and tories is for them not to be allowed into the country at all.

is that better?

 

[Geri]

it doesn't restrict movement, it doesn't restrict where people can live within those regions, it doesn't require immigrants to carry a pass on them at all times, it doesn't give the police the power to demand to see that pass at all times, in fact it would only give powers to check people's eligibility to work in an area through their employers records (then followed up by verification with the original documents if necessary), the same way that the current points system works.

You sound like you know quite a lot about it rather than nothing.

And if they're found not be legally allowed to "work in an area through their employers records" - removal from the aeea to the legally designated one. That's a pass law you appeassing clown.

Hey, we might get PR though!

Edit: butchers posting

 

[littlebabyjesus]

bare in mind that the alternative on offer from labour and tories is for them not to be allowed into the country at all.

is that better?

That's weak, fs. Not really true either, but even if if were, it's weak.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Edit: butchers posting

I thought that was a bit abrasive for Geri.

 

[free spirit]

You sound like you know quite a lot about it rather than nothing.

And if they're found not be legally allowed to "work in an area through their employers records" - that's a pass law you appeassing clown.

Hey, we might PR though!

why was the pass law called the pass law?

because it forced people to carry their pass on them at all times, and gave the police the right to demand to see that pass at all times.

this doesn't do that, therefore this isn't a fucking pass law. simple enough for you?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Under what conditions are they allowed to demand to see a worker's work permit?

 

[butchersapron]

Simple enough fs but irrelevant. The key function of the pass laws was to keep people within specific areas whilst using them as cheap labour. You've just outlined exactly how that would work here and how that's official lib-dem policy. You're undecided on it. I'm not.

 

[free spirit]

That's weak, fs. Not really true either, but even if if were, it's weak.

how is it not true?

labour will only allow economic migrants in from outside the country on a nationally based points system that doesn't make allowances for regional requirements. Therefore people who would be allowed into the country to meet regional needs under the lib dem proposal wouldn't be allowed in under labours system.

I forget precisely how the tories policy would work, but I'm pretty sure it would be tougher than the lib dem one.

 

[free spirit]

Under what conditions are they allowed to demand to see a worker's work permit?

the same circumstances they are currently allowed to check the details under labours points system.

ie via their employers records first, followed by checking the original documents if they're not satisfied with the employers copies.

 

[butchersapron]

...with the massive difference that today they're not only allowed in specific regions! Deport them to the east mids.