Proportional representation -- yea or nay?

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm pretty sure that's not right

How sure's pretty sure?

 

[free spirit]

Not true. The lib dems, as other parties, wish to stop all non-EU unskilled immigration. They only want immigrants who have been pre-trained elsewhere. We're putting a sign up saying "Send us your middle-classes."

that'd be true in some regions but not in others where there were shortages in the market for unskilled workers, such as temporary farm workers - the problem with labours points system that this policy is aiming to address.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

that'd be true in some regions but not in others where there were shortages in the market for unskilled workers, such as temporary farm workers - the problem with labours points system that this policy is aiming to address.

But farm work is, as you say, seasonal. What do they do when the harvest's in and they're only allowed to work in Lincolnshire?

tbh if this policy is aimed at low-paid unskilled labourers, that makes it even worse. If that were me, I'd take the job and the work permit and then I'd fuck off illegally somewhere else when it was over, finding work hopefully using contacts from others I'd have met who are in the same boat. Illegal immigrants tend to form networks like that to find each other work.

 

[free spirit]

How sure's pretty sure?

an understanding of the background for where the policy came from, which means it'd be fucking stupid to put this system in place but still only allow in skilled workers.

 

[sihhi]

Basically privatisation a la Obama/Clinton. And Kennedy is the good one!

Their regeneration council portfolio holder in Oldham Council, Howard Sykes, was against faith schools, particularly after the riots there:

At the secondary stage of education any analysis of the issues facing the Borough needs to take account of the impact of faith schools which attract higher ability students. By virtue of their criteria for selection such
schools can also reduce opportunities for mixing between communities.

None of the stuff matters it's just local opportunism across the country.

 

[free spirit]

But farm work is, as you say, seasonal. What do they do when the harvest's in and they're only allowed to work in Lincolnshire?

AFAIK they'd be allowed to work in any region that wasn't specifically excluded, so for farm work, they'd probably be able to move with the harvest in the same way as migrant farm workers have done for centuries, only not to areas where there wasn't a shortage of workers.

once the season was over, they'd probably mostly mooch about for a bit, then go home unless they could find other work - which is pretty much what this demographic does anyway now from my experience working with them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

once the season was over, they'd probably mostly mooch about for a bit, then go home unless they could find other work - which is pretty much what this demographic does anyway now from my experience working with them.

Thing I don't get is this: we need them for a few months' graft a year, but we want them to fuck off the rest of the time. Presumably their permit expires as the work ends. Do we have no responsibility towards these people who've come over to help us out?

Sounds pretty shameful to me.

 

[free spirit]

tbh if this policy is aimed at low-paid unskilled labourers, that makes it even worse. If that were me, I'd take the job and the work permit and then I'd fuck off illegally somewhere else when it was over, finding work hopefully using contacts from others I'd have met who are in the same boat. Illegal immigrants tend to form networks like that to find each other work.

that's also a possibility, but it's got to be less likely to happen if they're legally allowed to work in some parts of the country that they'd opt to go and work elsewhere illegally, than in the current situation where they can't work anywhere legally.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If a person comes here and works a season, have they not earned the right to stay for the winter too?

 

[free spirit]

Thing I don't get is this: we need them for a few months' graft a year, but we want them to fuck off the rest of the time. Presumably their permit expires as the work ends. Do we have no responsibility towards these people who've come over to help us out?

Sounds pretty shameful to me.

at the moment they aren't even allowed in to the country to work at all, resulting in crops not being harvested, and/or farmers and migrant workers being screwed over by gang masters charging top wack, and paying bottom dollar, and willing workers being excluded from the country.

given the choice, which system do you prefer?

also, if you've ever worked with such seasonal migrant workers, you'd know that a lot of them actually want to work solidly through the summer to get as much money in as they can, then return home when the work's not available to their families in the winter, where their summers wages from the UK will last them easily over the winter.

OK, so if the option was available to move their entire families here permanently with guaranteed permanent work, then some of them may go for that, but that's not the work that's available (without seriously undercutting UK wages), so it's pretty irrelevant really.

 

[free spirit]

If a person comes here and works a season, have they not earned the right to stay for the winter too?

they can stay, but why would they if the works not here, they generally want to go somewhere that the cost of living is much much lower than the UK so they can make the most of their summer's wages.

 

[free spirit]

Free Spirit I notice you are deliberately ignoring the links Sihhi posted showing the Libdems support for Sodexho, didn't you used to be a No Borders activist? I wouldn't have marked you down as an apologist for asylum profiteers.

It doesn't take much for you to abandon your principles does it?

I was never a no borders activist, though I do have a lot of sympathy for their ideas, and have defended some of their ideas to some extent on here before.

as far as I'm concerned, the lib dems offer the best choice of the 3 main parties on immigration policy. It's far from perfect, but it shits all over labour and conservatives, and those were the 3 options available under FPTP where I live / for most people nationally.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

they can stay, but why would they if the works not here, they generally want to go somewhere that the cost of living is much much lower than the UK so they can make the most of their summer's wages.

In which case, why is there any need for legislation about them? Just let them come and go as the work comes and goes.

 

[free spirit]

a. If the pressure of business was curbed by struggle outside the electoral arena services could be provided in-house.

b. The fact that they're not and you can't find "a party that is in power somewhere in the UK and hasn't dealt with sodexo in one form or another" suggests that giving any 'party' 'power' - including the lib dems - is either a mistake or a distraction.

ok that's fine in the abstract, but in reality unless the revolution's around the corner and nobodies told me, the government and councils are in power, and local councils must play by the rules set by government, which in turn must play by the rules set by the WTO, and if either government or councils break those rules, they can be taken to court by the corporation, and sued for damages likely to run into the millions at least.

it's the problem of real world post WTO vs none existent anarchist paradise. I don't like it, have campaigned against the WTO for 15 years specifically because of this, but am also a pragmatist.

 

[free spirit]

In which case, why is there any need for legislation about them? Just let them come and go as the work comes and goes.

because of the real or perceived fear that they'd come for the seasons work, then move into the city in the winter where there is no labour shortage and undercut local workers eg on building sites, cleaning etc. then stay in that work the next season meaning more migrant workers would need to come in to do the work in the fields etc etc.

the lib dems policy may well not be perfect, but at least it's a reasonable first attempt to come up with a sensible policy that balances all the varying issues.

 

[butchersapron]

ok that's fine in the abstract, but in reality unless the revolution's around the corner and nobodies told me, the government and councils are in power, and local councils must play by the rules set by government, which in turn must play by the rules set by the WTO, and if either government or councils break those rules, they can be taken to court by the corporation, and sued for damages likely to run into the millions at least.

it's the problem of real world post WTO vs none existent anarchist paradise. I don't like it, have campaigned against the WTO for 15 years specifically because of this, but am also a pragmatist.

"For as water will not ascend higher than the level of the first springhead from whence it descendeth, so knowledge derived from Ariitotle, and exempted from liberty of examination, will not rise again higher than the knowledge of Aristotle.' than the level of the first springhead from whence it descendeth, so knowledge derived from Aristotle, and exempted from liberty of examination, will not rise again higher than the knowledge of Aristotle.'

 

[butchersapron]

because of the real or perceived fear that they'd come for the seasons work, then move into the city in the winter where there is no labour shortage and undercut local workers eg on building sites, cleaning etc. then stay in that work the next season meaning more migrant workers would need to come in to do the work in the fields etc etc.

the lib dems policy may well not be perfect, but at least it's a reasonable first attempt to come up with a sensible policy that balances all the varying issues.

First attempt? How long have they been going then? This is the end result. The finished article.

 

[free spirit]

Amazing you support a party you don't agree with or are undecided about on such central issues.

funnily enough, there are actually no parties around that I agree with 100% on every single issue, or at least not one that was worth voting for under fptp, so like virtually everyone else in the country, I was left to support the party who's policies best fit with mine.

if we get rid of fptp I may find a party that's an even better fit with my ideas that's worth supporting, but that's not the situation we're in at present, and won't be for even longer if people like you keep up your sniping.

 

[free spirit]

First attempt? How long have they been going then? This is the end result. The finished article.

this is their first chance to respond to the system new labour put in place during this last parliament, along with the changed situation resulting from the huge unmanaged influx of eastern european immigrants over the last decade.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Of course, you could try getting farm workers decent pay and conditions...

 

[ymu]

funnily enough, there are actually no parties around that I agree with 100% on every single issue, or at least not one that was worth voting for under fptp, so like virtually everyone else in the country, I was left to support the party who's policies best fit with mine.

So why are you defending them across so many threads? You can choose the lesser of two evils without insisting that one of them actually isn't evil at all, you know?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

this is their first chance to respond to the system new labour put in place during this last parliament, along with the changed situation resulting from the huge unmanaged influx of eastern european immigrants over the last decade.

But that's a done deal. EU workers are free to come here. Nobody is proposing a change to that. TBH, I'd like to see figures on casual farm workers and where they're from. How many are from outside the EU?

This is Nigel Farage's strongest point – he can legitimately point to the hypocrisy of other parties when they talk about 'getting tough' on immigration. It is gross hypocrisy aimed at prejudices that have been stirred up by, ironically, the likes of Farage and also of course the BNP. The libdems' ridiculous policy is just the latest in these appeals to people's irrational fears.

 

[free spirit]

"For as water will not ascend higher than the level of the first springhead from whence it descendeth, so knowledge derived from Ariitotle, and exempted from liberty of examination, will not rise again higher than the knowledge of Aristotle.' than the level of the first springhead from whence it descendeth, so knowledge derived from Aristotle, and exempted from liberty of examination, will not rise again higher than the knowledge of Aristotle.'

whatever. My point being that it's pointless criticising a political party on the basis that a council it runs has contracted services out to a transnational corporation under a process that's put in place by central government, as a result of WTO free trade rules, and over which the council has fuck all say without risking being taken to court and fined the equivalent of the profits that the company could have expected to make from the contract.

get it yet?

 

[free spirit]

But that's a done deal. EU workers are free to come here. Nobody is proposing a change to that. TBH, I'd like to see figures on casual farm workers and where they're from. How many are from outside the EU?

yes, but that situation has changed the entire landscape of the immigration debate, and was largely responsible for labour implementing it's points based system in the first place. Not that it affects EU migration, but being as they can't touch EU migration numbers, they ended up clamping down disproportionately on non-EU migration.

none are from outside the EU officially, so no figures are likely to exist.

 

[free spirit]

So why are you defending them across so many threads? You can choose the lesser of two evils without insisting that one of them actually isn't evil at all, you know?

because they're being unfairly attacked on numerous threads on positions I mostly do agree with, or at least don't agree with seeing them attacked via the type of bullshit mudslinging seen on this thread and elsewhere.

and because, you know, I actually do support the party at the moment at least, and hope they'll not let me/the country down, so when people are mudslinging I want to check what they're on about in case they actually have a point, and post up my response to hopefully correct any false impressions that are being given.

or should I just meekly allow urban's angry left wingers to spread their bullshit unchallenged?


eta - also I have a hangover, and arguing on the interweb's about all I'm good for today

 

[Jean-Luc]

People are forgetting that an alternative to the First Past the Post system is already in operation in Britain -- for the election of mayors.

Supplementary Vote
Under the Supplementary Vote, voters express a first and second choice of candidate only, and, if no candidate receives an absolute majority of first choice votes, all but the two leading candidates are eliminated and the votes of those eliminated redistributed according to their second choice votes to determine the winner. The Supplementary Vote is currently used in all elections for directly elected mayors in England, including the Mayor of London.

For an example of how this worked in the 6 May elections see here.
If for the election of mayors why not for the election of MPs?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

People are forgetting that an alternative to the First Past the Post system is already in operation in Britain -- for the election of mayors.
For an example of how this worked in the 6 May elections see here.
If for the election of mayors why not for the election of MPs?

Various forms of PR are also in use - FPTP+Top up for the Scottish and Welsh Parliament and Assembly and the GLA, STV for the Scottish locals, and for NI elections, and pure list for euros.

 

[Jean-Luc]

STV for the Scottish locals,

I'd forgotten about that. Does it work to ensure representation for minorities such as the Greens, the BNP and far-left groups?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I'd forgotten about that. Does it work to ensure representation for minorities such as the Greens, the BNP and far-left groups?

It has been done in such a way as to exclude most minor parties, I think most wards have four or three seats, meaning you need to get a relatively high threshold.

From what I have seen (I'm not Scottish though) is that it has benefitted the SNP, Tories, and Libdems and cost Labour hundreds of seats, while also leading to the first few Green councillors - I think there are a few far-left scattered around and no BNP. Most of the far-left councillors actually date back to before the reforms, and the Greens have councillors under FPTP in England so I'm not sure STV has really benefited them in this case it seems to mainly favour medium size parties.

Maybe one of our Scots posters will correct me though.

 

[butchersapron]

This is the sort of coalition that PR enables:
Germany: The Berlin Senate, the Left Party and international hedge funds

The Berlin Senate―controlled by a coalition of the Social Democratic Party and the Left Party―has sold off large amounts of the city's housing stock to notorious hedge funds.