Proportional representation -- yea or nay?

[trevhagl]

Hang on, 80% of the electorate just voted against PR.

where was that?

 

[butchersapron]

In the UK.

Here's a link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/

 

[trevhagl]

In the UK.

Here's a link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/

can't see an 80% vote against PR there, unless of course you mean everyone that voted , voted for the party they LIKE and not against others.

I voted for Lib Dem who i don't trust, and only made my mind up on the day, because i think the system , and the choices are a farce

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's bollocks, butchers.

 

[butchersapron]

Hang on, PR the key thing see oh now need it or we're all going to die - 80% voted against the only party offering it. Don't you support democracy trev?

 

[butchersapron]

That's bollocks, butchers.

Keep your nose out of my wind-ups please.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

.

 

[free spirit]

Hang on, PR the key thing see oh now need it or we're all going to die - 80% voted against the only party offering it. Don't you support democracy trev?

you don't half talk a load of shite sometimes.

PR was actively supported by at least SNP, Plaid, Greens, Alliance as well as the lib dems at this election, and was only one of many issues that people used to determine which way they were going to vote.

a referendum specifically on the proposals to change the electoral system is the only democratic way to determine the level of support for the issue, and tbh if you reckon so many people are against it, then you shouldn't have a problem with supporting a referendum should you?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

you don't half talk a load of shite sometimes.

PR was actively supported by at least SNP, Plaid, Greens, Alliance as well as the lib dems at this election, and was only one of many issues that people used to determine which way they were going to vote.

a referendum specifically on the proposals to change the electoral system is the only democratic way to determine the level of support for the issue, and tbh if you reckon so many people are against it, then you shouldn't have a problem with supporting a referendum should you?

You have a complete failiure to understand how politics work don't you?

An overwhelming majority of the electorate made it clear that electoral reform was very low on their agenda in this election - only one party had it as a priority and even they had it below the economy and environment.

A significant chunk of the politically engaged electorate are clearly opposed to electoral reform or at least to PR and the vast majority are not bothered.

There is no evidence that the majority of votes for the minor and nationalist parties were for electoral reform rather than the economy, environment, crime, immigration, public services, Europe/whatever. And there is some evidence to suggest that a significant % of Libdem voters did not have it as top of their list.

 

[weltweit]

As the part in the middle (muddle) the Liberal Democrats have the most to gain from PR also as they are in the middle they can swing both ways to make coalitions with the left or the right.

Unprincipled Sluts!

 

[free spirit]

You have a complete failiure to understand how politics work don't you?

An overwhelming majority of the electorate made it clear that electoral reform was very low on their agenda in this election - only one party had it as a priority and even they had it below the economy and environment.

A significant chunk of the politically engaged electorate are clearly opposed to electoral reform or at least to PR and the vast majority are not bothered.

There is no evidence that the majority of votes for the minor and nationalist parties were for electoral reform rather than the economy, environment, crime, immigration, public services, Europe/whatever. And there is some evidence to suggest that a significant % of Libdem voters did not have it as top of their list.

I understand it fine thanks, and I also understand democracy, which is a very different thing in this country.

if you're confident of your position against electoral reform you should have no problem with the idea of a referendum on the issue should you?

or is that bluster just covering up for the fact that you reckon we'd win the argument for bringing a much better form of democracy to the supposed home of democracy?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What's Greece got to do with it?

 

[butchersapron]

you don't half talk a load of shite sometimes.

PR was actively supported by at least SNP, Plaid, Greens, Alliance as well as the lib dems at this election, and was only one of many issues that people used to determine which way they were going to vote.

a referendum specifically on the proposals to change the electoral system is the only democratic way to determine the level of support for the issue, and tbh if you reckon so many people are against it, then you shouldn't have a problem with supporting a referendum should you?

I even publicly pointed out i was winding trev up. I got a lib-dem in the net nonetheless.

I have no problem at all with a referendum on it - you're the dummy who think it's worth the price of a tory govt though.

 

[free spirit]

As the part in the middle (muddle) the Liberal Democrats have the most to gain from PR also as they are in the middle they can swing both ways to make coalitions with the left or the right.

Unprincipled Sluts!

unprincipled?

we're not the ones locking up asylum seekers for months / years, launching illegal wars of aggression, being complicit in torture, detention without trial, ID cards etc etc.

if your principles allow this sort of shit to go on, then I'm fucking glad there's a party around who has different principles to new labour's because new labour's principles fucking stink.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

unprincipled?

we're not the ones locking up asylum seekers for months / years, launching illegal wars of aggression, being complicit in torture, detention without trial, ID cards etc etc.

if your principles allow this sort of shit to go on, then I'm fucking glad there's a party around who has different principles to new labour's because new labour's principles fucking stink.

Hang on! Where did weltweit say he's a New Labour person? AFAIK fullyplumped is the only self-confessed NL person on here.

 

[Acolyte]

unprincipled?



if your principles allow this sort of shit to go on, then I'm fucking glad there's a party around who has different principles to new labour's because new labour's principles fucking stink.

Interesting juxtaposition new labour and principle in one sentence

 

[butchersapron]

unprincipled?

we're not the ones locking up asylum seekers for months / years, launching illegal wars of aggression, being complicit in torture, detention without trial, ID cards etc etc.

if your principles allow this sort of shit to go on, then I'm fucking glad there's a party around who has different principles to new labour's because new labour's principles fucking stink.

Have you a position on your parties proposed introduction of pass laws? Do you think this is part of the ongoing principled discussions?

 

[free spirit]

Hang on! Where did weltweit say he's a New Labour person? AFAIK fullyplumped is the only self-confessed NL person on here.

as far as I'm aware,the choice is between partnering up with new labour or conservative here. I was presuming weltweit wasn't a tory, and would prefer us to go with new labour, a party that as far as I'm concerned has demonstrated that it's lost touch with any principles it may once have had over the last 13 years.

if we were to go in with new labour I'd hope that it would be on the basis of them agreeing to a massive roll back of their police state type policies amongst other things, because we actually do have some principles (I hope).

 

[free spirit]

Have you a position on your parties proposed introduction of pass laws? Do you think this is part of the ongoing principled discussions?

come again

 

[butchersapron]

come again

Have you not read your parties manifesto? Pages 74-75. The let us know if you support pass laws.

 

[free spirit]

Have you not read your parties manifesto? Pages 74-75. The let us know if you support pass laws.

I see nothing on those pages that even vaguely resembles the pass laws, perhaps you could try explaining in your own words exactly wtf your on about.

I presume you're on about the idea of allowing limited economic immigration to specific regions... in which case, it seems reasonably logical, and only restricts where people can work, not where they can go, and is basically just an extension of the current points based system.

I'm generally more of an open borders type, but if we're going to have a points based system to allow in economic migrants to work in specific roles, then this is a pretty logical extension to it.

 

[butchersapron]

Regionally based immigration permits combined with a National Border Force to impose restrictions = pass laws. It's black and white. (Huh huh)

Are there no depths to which you won't go?

 

[grit]

I presume you're on about the idea of allowing limited economic immigration to specific regions... in which case, it seems reasonably logical, and only restricts where people can work, not where they can go, and is basically just an extension of the current points based system.

This is how Australia deals with it and it appears to work reasonably well.

 

[Idaho]

5 times you've trotted this idiocy out. After the 3rd time i said if you did it once more it would make you a liar. And here we are.

Well you can insist that you aren't saying x whilst continuing to say x.

Are you not saying that there is no point changing the political system without changing the economic system? And are you not saying that the economic system won't be changed by Labour, Conservative or Liberals? Therefore why not change the political system to allow other voices?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is how Australia deals with it and it appears to work reasonably well.

What evidence do you base this judgement on?

 

[butchersapron]

Well you can insist that you aren't saying x whilst continuing to say x.

Are you not saying that there is no point changing the political system without changing the economic system? And are you not saying that the economic system won't be changed by Labour, Conservative or Liberals? Therefore why not change the political system to allow other voices?

You can, i'm not.

No, i'm not. Fucking hell, why do you even bother, every punch misses every single time.

 

[grit]

What evidence do you base this judgement on?

Personal experience, its a country that has a huge amount of immigration and in general people who I met all over the country were of the opinion that it was logical and addressed the requirements of the country.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I understand it fine thanks, and I also understand democracy, which is a very different thing in this country.

if you're confident of your position against electoral reform you should have no problem with the idea of a referendum on the issue should you?

or is that bluster just covering up for the fact that you reckon we'd win the argument for bringing a much better form of democracy to the supposed home of democracy?

Not only am I not opposed to a referendum, I would actually vote in favour if something like Irish style STV was on offer. That is not the point however.

 

[TAE]

When somebody shows me a form of PR that reduces rather than increases the power of the national political parties then I'll be all for it. Until then I'll continue to believe that the way forward is to try to get as many people as possible to vote against party hacks when they have them presented as candidates.

The existing national parties would have less power because it would be much harder for them to get absolute majorities on a third of the votes.

BTW lib-demmers, do not assume that your 22% under a FTP system will be replicated under a PR model - half your votes are on loan from the real parties and i don't think the swing back the other way would make up for the loss, not if you look at where votes come from/go.

A proper national PR system would let me vote Green at the general election, right now I cannot even waste my vote on them because no Green candidate was standing where I vote.

 

[free spirit]

Not only am I not opposed to a referendum, I would actually vote in favour if something like Irish style STV was on offer. That is not the point however.

so what was the point?

how people voted in the election should in no way be taken as reflecting their opinion on PR, as it was just one among many factors that influenced people's voting choice.

making out that this election says anything about whether or not people want electoral reform is just crap, as is attempting to work out where people put it on a notional list of priorities.

you can fuck right off with your as well btw