butchersapron
Bring back hanging
"The odd critical and intelligent voice in parliament who isn't just a career politician." - how they shudder.
Proportional representation -- yea or nay?
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"The odd critical and intelligent voice in parliament who isn't just a career politician." - how they shudder.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Maybe, but conversely, there are a fair few Labour votes that would go to the Greens or a new socialist party in PR.
For instance, I've only ever voted twice, and it was for Labour both times. I would not dream of voting Labour if we had pr.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why, they'd be wasted votes the same way as we have now -the big three will squat there hoovering all votes except those of regional napoleons. Do have a look at how PR actually works in europe.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The greens have been in government in Germany.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
There aren't. They'd stick with the labour party as they need all their support to present the biggest influence in the coalition. That's how it works.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
They have, and they supported the worst neo-liberal atacks the w/c has seen post war, they supported attacks on jobs, attacks on the welfare state, they supported attacks on pensions, they supported attacks on the NHS, they moved decisively rightwards. They got dragged - no one else.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I guess a factor in that has been the environmental legislation in Germany for the past 10+ years ?
ska invita
back on the other side
i only vote libdem as a vote for PR - once libdem is introduced i'll vote for green, (or possibly other smaller parties, have to see who stands at the time) as in local elections - i wonder how many other libdem voters are of a similar mind?
EDIT: as said above ... sorry donig three things at once here
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Then you're a dilettante.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Hmmm. That's depressing – co-opted into power and so neutralised.
I'm guessing their rationale will have been that they were mitigating the worst effects of such policies. After all, that's what being a politician is, ultimately, doing what you think is possible. For example, the Greens here have set out a very explicit programme for redistributive taxation. If they backed down on that to prop up a Labour government, they'd ask something in return for backing down.
But yes, that is how seemingly decent people can end up doing terrible things.
ska invita
back on the other side
give the UK greens a chance! So thats what happened in germany - doesnt mean it will happen here. One step at a time...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Such rigour. Such clarity.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The alternative is nihilism, though, butchers. If I lived in Brighton, I would have gone and voted, and I'd have voted Green. And I'd have been pleased to have a Green MP. It might not be worth that much, but it would make it a tiny bit better to walk the streets.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of hope! And there's something to be said for standing up and saying you are there, even if you know it will come to nothing.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of hope! And there's something to be said for standing up and saying you are there, even if you know it will come to nothing.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The alternative is not nihilism it's communism. I don't like being associated with pessimism or nihilism (not saying that in an arsey way ), i'm as optimistic as they come - this crisis has developed out of our strength. Pointing out the German Greens vile neo-liberalism is not nihilism, to think it is is a damaging failure of perspective.
ska invita
back on the other side
whAT Does that mean?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Fair enough.
I wasn't trying to imply that your comment on the German greens was nihilism, though, but the implied suggestion that the greens would go the same way here too borders on nihilism, if it means that you stay disengaged. I would vote if we had pr, and I'd vote either green or for a socialist party. That would not mean that I endorsed the system. It would just mean that I thought it worthwhile, on balance, to walk in and vote.
Even though I didn't vote this week, I am under no illusion that my not voting was a meaningful stand. It wasn't. In the US, the right wing actually points to the low turnout as an indication of how well the system works! In Latin America, 'democracy' has survived in decades in places like Colombia with turnouts as low as 20%.
I wasn't trying to imply that your comment on the German greens was nihilism, though, but the implied suggestion that the greens would go the same way here too borders on nihilism, if it means that you stay disengaged. I would vote if we had pr, and I'd vote either green or for a socialist party. That would not mean that I endorsed the system. It would just mean that I thought it worthwhile, on balance, to walk in and vote.
Even though I didn't vote this week, I am under no illusion that my not voting was a meaningful stand. It wasn't. In the US, the right wing actually points to the low turnout as an indication of how well the system works! In Latin America, 'democracy' has survived in decades in places like Colombia with turnouts as low as 20%.
littlebabyjesus said:
No it doesn't. It means that the pressures acting on labour that caused it to dump thempretense of socialism are the same pressures acting on any borgeoise party- the dictates of the market create the boundaries of acceptable policy making in the absence of a bellicose working class.
Recognizing that the greens would do as they are told just like any other party is realism not nihilism.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You know how, they can't invest in surplus value producing stuff in this country/area, they have to move into finance, they have too much money, they have to get rid off, we get cheap credit - you know the analysis.
And i didn't say it was as a result of our victories but our strength - they're massively different important things and massively different in important ways, and key to here we go from here.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That you're a bit of a fool.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I understand that point, and largely agree with it. I think I'm just looking at much smaller prizes – there is not just one way that politics can be played out, and who it is that is 'doing as they're told' does make a difference. They don't just do as they're told – politicians with enough balls can push a little in the other direction too.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It works to give the interests mention above the same power and legitimacy.
PR will save us from...Ireland!
PR will save us from...Ireland!
grit
an ugly force for good
Does it?
Yeah, however since everyone running are cunts unfortunately it doesn't fix the ton of problems with the country
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So it doesn't really matter then?
grit
an ugly force for good
It will, whenever someone who isn't a cunt decides to run.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So if people who weren't cunts got up and decided they're all stand for the dail they'd be in with a shot?
grit
an ugly force for good
They would be in for a better shot with PR then without.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
How many not-cunts have got in thus far?
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