grit
an ugly force for good
The answer depends on your point of view I guess.
Proportional representation -- yea or nay?
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The answer depends on your point of view I guess.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yep. One then.
grit
an ugly force for good
I dont follow (prob because im tired) can you clarify? You obviously are just bursting to chime in with something.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
grit
an ugly force for good
Hiiggins.That's it. That's what PR delivered to the far left.
Bed now
The point is that its a fairer system, not what its done for the left.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's not at all, that's the point.
grit
an ugly force for good
You think the winner takes all situation provides a more accurate representation?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think it makes no difference. Accurate representation be damned.
grit
an ugly force for good
I'm speechless (typeless?). If that's your attitude why should a country even bother with an election if you don't care about it accurately representing what people want?
Personally I don't vote as I feel I'd be validating a broken system, however PR is the lesser of two evils here.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Don't be .Electoral democracy is not real democracy. Economic democracy is.
Indeed, why should they even bother.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
'Lesser of evils' or 'least worst' is the rationale that a few LibDem voters have given today about why they vote/voted the way they do. When it comes down to it, all that serves to do is move the parties further in the direction they were already heading i.e. right.
stupid kid
...
I've been thinking about all this. I voted lib dem in an area I was sure they'd lose in, in the hope that their share of the vote nationally would go up without their seats going up much - hopefully making the current system seem unworkable and lead to electoral system reform, fwiw I favour STV, like the Lib Dems. In fact they lost seats and their share of the vote remained the same. They're still totally screwed under the current system.
So anyway, my big objection to FPTP is how it means the power to elect a government is shared disproportionately. I've got no preference for or against coalition politics, but obviously FPTP is more likely to give us a majority government. It's not right that we should allow floating voters who are probably about 10-20% of the constituents in maybe 10% of the constituencies (that's 1-2% of the people for those able to vote for those poor at maths) to decide the government for the other 98% of us. Now the lib dems could possibly wield power one way or the other, even though they're the third party. Results like the current one are likely to be mirrored under the a PR system from what I can see. So under a PR system, wouldn't we just be swapping the decision making from the floating voters in the marginals to the leaders of the third and fourth placed parties? How's that more democratic?
So anyway, my big objection to FPTP is how it means the power to elect a government is shared disproportionately. I've got no preference for or against coalition politics, but obviously FPTP is more likely to give us a majority government. It's not right that we should allow floating voters who are probably about 10-20% of the constituents in maybe 10% of the constituencies (that's 1-2% of the people for those able to vote for those poor at maths) to decide the government for the other 98% of us. Now the lib dems could possibly wield power one way or the other, even though they're the third party. Results like the current one are likely to be mirrored under the a PR system from what I can see. So under a PR system, wouldn't we just be swapping the decision making from the floating voters in the marginals to the leaders of the third and fourth placed parties? How's that more democratic?
grit
an ugly force for good
I dont know anything about the lib dems, but the logic is sound in the context of the current system.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I'm not going to attempt to argue logic in the small hours
But surely you can see that your qualifier of 'context of current system' is the key part. You're essentially arguing for a diluted version of the current system.
grit
an ugly force for good
I'm not going to attempt to argue logic in the small hours
For the sole reason that there doesn't appear to be any possible alternatives. I agree wholeheartedly that the context qualifier is the key part, as I said earlier if we are stuck with this system lets at least try to make it a bit better where it can be.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
There are alternatives. What's lacking is a clear way of presenting them + how to get there (cos it wouldn't happen overnight barring revolution, and even then the revolting would need to know how to organise what happens next).
grit
an ugly force for good
This is why I said there doesn't appear to be alternatives, we are actually agreeing I'm just too thick to articulate it correctly
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
This is why I said there doesn't appear to be alternatives, we are actually agreeing I'm just too thick to articulate it correctly
Well, we're not actually agreeing cos I'm not an advocate of PR as a lesser evil.
If the poll had been about supporting full representation, I might have voted differently. But even then, that would have been a 'lesser evil' approach.
grit
an ugly force for good
Oh sorry, you don't consider it even marginally better than winner takes all?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
"I don't give a fuck"
grit
an ugly force for good
Then why take part in this discussion?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Because just because I don't give a fuck about PR, doesn't mean that I don't care.
See also: actively not voting.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Hang on, 80% of the electorate just voted against PR.
Idaho
blah blah blah
Only with certain systems.
Idaho
blah blah blah
Once again you seem to be suggesting that unless we change everything overnight, we may as well not change anything.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
5 times you've trotted this idiocy out. After the 3rd time i said if you did it once more it would make you a liar. And here we are.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The gentleman-farmer lib-dem voice must be heard!
you're saying that some people's votes are worth less than others?
which is the system we currently have so no surprise there then.
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