Plane crashes onto A27 at Shoreham Air Show

[2hats]

The case was delayed and complicated when a court ruled the police could not have direct access to evidence gathered by the Air Accident Investigation Board.

I wonder why the court made such a ruling, seems totally illogical to me.

AFAICS the police were refused access to AAIB collected evidence whilst the AAIB investigation was still underway (the refusal was in September 2016, the AAIB final report published in March 2017). Which would appear to suggest that the court was allowing the AAIB investigation to reach an independent conclusion first.

 

[cupid_stunt]

AFAICS the police were refused access to AAIB collected evidence whilst the AAIB investigation was still underway (the refusal was in September 2016, the AAIB final report published in March 2017). Which would appear to suggest that the court was allowing the AAIB investigation to reach an independent conclusion first.

That would make sense.

 

[mauvais]

The AAIB operates on a broad principle of prioritising future avoidance of accidents over punishment for those that have happened. Learning lessons from accidents requires that the people involved can & will talk openly about what happened without fearing e.g. prosecution or explicit blame. So if the AAIB process is allowed to become a conduit for the police to go after someone before it completes, it has a very serious problem in terms of deterring participants.

 

[elbows]

Indeed. the records in question have a protected status in law. Here is an article where Sussex police applied to the high court for access to pilot statements, flight footage from on-plane cameras, and some other material in 2016. The High Court refused the application, except for the film footage.

Shoreham High Court Judgment - GOV.UK

 

[mauvais]

Indeed. the records in question have a protected status in law. Here is an article where Sussex police applied to the high court for access to pilot statements, flight footage from on-plane cameras, and some other material in 2016. The High Court refused the application, except for the film footage.

Shoreham High Court Judgment - GOV.UK

Expanding on the post above, here's a good summary of why it is this way:

Shoreham: High Court grants access to video but stops short of full disclosure - Lexology

 

[gosub]

The pilot is being charged with causing manslaughter by gross negligence.





I wonder why the court made such a ruling, seems totally illogical to me.

Shoreham Airshow pilot Andy Hill will be charged with manslaughter | The Argus

About fucking time.

 

[David Clapson]

IANAL but his defence could be very complicated - defective aircraft, inadequate briefing by the organisers, poor oversight by local authority, inherent risk, act(s) of God, blah blah. So I doubt they will be able to prove manslaughter. Seems to me that he made one gross error, which was to decide to complete the loop when the lack of height at the top of the loop made it impossible. A split second decision. Some would that was pilot error and manslaughter by gross negligence. Ever since the crash other pilots have been wondering why on earth he didn't abandon the loop. He had enough height to do that safely. But he's the only one who knows what his thought process was. He has probably explained that in detail to the AAIB. I hope he will be open about it in court.

 

[redcogs]

It seems likely that pilot Hill has some culpability in this tragedy. But if my reading of above posts is correct there are other breeches that ought also to raise prosecutions. The governments final report states:

"The investigation found that the parties involved in the planning, conduct and regulatory oversight of the flying display did not have formal safety management systems in place to identify and manage the hazards and risks. There was a lack of clarity about who owned which risk and who was responsible for the safety of the flying display, the aircraft, and the public outside the display site who were not under the control of the show organisers".

It is an uncomfortable parallel, but the Grenfell Tower disaster involves evasions of responsibility, buck passing, and corner cutting. i reckon it is reasonable to question whether there is a common denomenator at play in both situations?

im certainly in favour of the announced legal action against the pilot, but surely it wouldn't be right to have a single scapegoat whilst others avoid facing the courts. Of course that may not happen, and presumably further announcements remain possible? But innocent people died, and their loved ones ought to have the possibility that justice is comprehensively served.

 

[gosub]

It seems likely that pilot Hill has some culpability in this tragedy. But if my reading of above posts is correct there are other breeches that ought also to raise prosecutions. The governments final report states:

"The investigation found that the parties involved in the planning, conduct and regulatory oversight of the flying display did not have formal safety management systems in place to identify and manage the hazards and risks. There was a lack of clarity about who owned which risk and who was responsible for the safety of the flying display, the aircraft, and the public outside the display site who were not under the control of the show organisers".

It is an uncomfortable parallel, but the Grenfell Tower disaster involves evasions of responsibility, buck passing, and corner cutting. i reckon it is reasonable to question whether there is a common denomenator at play in both situations?

im certainly in favour of the announced legal action against the pilot, but surely it wouldn't be right to have a single scapegoat whilst others avoid facing the courts. Of course that may not happen, and presumably further announcements remain possible? But innocent people died, and their loved ones ought to have the possibility that justice is comprehensively served.

What is your personal history in aviation?

 

[redcogs]

i once got a plane to Portugal. A return flight.

 

[mauvais]

But he's the only one who knows what his thought process was. He has probably explained that in detail to the AAIB. I hope he will be open about it in court.

AFAIK the pilot hasn't contributed much because he claims to have no memory of the incident. I could be wrong.

 

[DownwardDog]

Ever since the crash other pilots have been wondering why on earth he didn't abandon the loop. He had enough height to do that safely.

Probably because he'd entered the maneuver at the wrong height many times before and got away with it.

These things are always going to happen as long as ex military aircraft types are allowed on the civil register.

 

[redcogs]

Probably because he'd entered the maneuver at the wrong height many times before and got away with it.

These things are always going to happen as long as ex military aircraft types are allowed on the civil register.

If air displays involving tight maneuvers and gyrations must be organised then it would surely make sense for them to take place over large open areas of sea, ie, areas where humans are not innocently going about their normal daily activities and would not be endangered by any lunatic irresponsibility borne out of gung-ho petrol headed cock waving.

 

[David Clapson]

Some do take place over the sea, e.g. the Clacton one, which attracts crowds of 100,000+.

At the inland ones the aircraft have not been allowed to fly close to the crowd since 30 people died in the 1952 Farnborough Air Show crash 1952 Farnborough Airshow crash - Wikipedia. The airfields are typically very large, e.g. Farnborough is 7700 acres. When the aircraft crash nowadays it's almost always on an empty part of the airfield and the debris doesn't go anywhere near people. The Shoreham disaster was very unusual, in that the airfield is tiny, about 300 acres, and has a busy dual carriageway only 200 metres from the runway.

In 2016 29 new safety measures were introduced because of Shoreham. A number of air shows have been cancelled because they can't comply, or don't want to risk losing money on a boring show which only gets a small crowd. Shoreham hasn't had an air show since the deaths. I haven't found a statement about their future plans, if any. The new rules are here http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP 1371 civil air display review actions eval.pdf

A few display pilots are probably arrogant willy-wavers, but millions of people want to see them. Football is the only outdoor event in the UK which gets more spectators

Air shows have always had a relatively high accident rate. Some of the aircraft are experimental and they get pushed to the limit, either to please the crowd or to sell the aircraft to potential customers. The Russians used to be in the habit of crashing their latest and greatest designs at the Paris air show. But I doubt the accident rate is as bad as it is for ordinary flying in small single-propeller aircraft, or helicopters. They fall out of the sky all the time. I doubt that old ex-military jets are any worse. The really awful ones crashed or were scrapped years ago when they were in military service. The survivors are still around because they're good at surviving.

 

[Rosemary Jest]

What fascinates me about this whole thing is how the pilot survived. He wasn't even seriously injured from what I recall.

How on earth did that happen?

 

[likesfish]

Luck and military aircraft has a fireproof bulkhead behind the cockpit the fuel and engines are behind him

 

[DownwardDog]

I doubt that old ex-military jets are any worse. The really awful ones crashed or were scrapped years ago when they were in military service. The survivors are still around because they're good at surviving.

Plenty of the 'really awful ones' made it on to the UK civil register - MiG-15 and Sea Vixen for a start. The Fresco is unstable in yaw at any speed from 0-1,000km/h and the Sea Vixen was one of the most complicated (14 different fuel tanks that had to be manually managed) and downright dangerous aircraft to spring from the ever fertile minds of post war British aircraft designers.

I doubt that swept wing mil types will be allowed to do aeros for public display in the UK again. The Vampires and JP/Strikemasters will carry on until one of them ploughs into a dual carriageway.

I remember flying with the Shoreham pilot in the late 80s. We were in one of a pair of JPs on a navigation exercise . He got on the radio and asked permission from Fairford for a 'slow fly by'. We came steaming through at about 400KIAS and 200'. I remember looking out at the rows of B-52s as we flashed over them and thinking: Jesus Christ, this is living.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I meant to post this last week & forgot.

Hill appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court last Thursday, charged with 11 counts of manslaughter and one count of endangering an aircraft, indicating he would be pleading not guilty, he was bailed to appear at the Old Bailey on 17th May.

Shoreham air crash pilot in court

 

[Indeliblelink]

Andrew Hill's trial for manslaughter started yesterday.
Shoreham airshow crash: Trial begins for pilot Andrew Hill

 

[Rosemary Jest]

A sad situation all round. How come it's taken 4 years to start the trial?

Edit: well 3 1/2 or so.

 

[dylanredefined]

A sad situation all round. How come it's taken 4 years to start the trial?

Edit: well 3 1/2 or so.

He had to recover from his injury. Civil inquiry had to end. Then police enquiry had to begin.

 

[cupid_stunt]

It was such a tragic accident, for the 11 victims and their friends & family, but also for the thousands that witnessed it, including some of my family.

I found out recently, from a third party, that a local funeral director I know did all the funerals free of charge, they had kept that well quiet, out of the press, away from social media, etc., when I asked him about it, he was embarrassed that it had got out.

What a nice thing to do.

 

[ricbake]

What fascinates me about this whole thing is how the pilot survived. He wasn't even seriously injured from what I recall.

How on earth did that happen?

The bottom of his loop was along a road....
Incredible pictures show Shoreham air pilot looking unscathed after crash that killed 11

 

[Spymaster]

The bottom of his loop was along a road....
Incredible pictures show Shoreham air pilot looking unscathed after crash that killed 11

That's pretty much the same picture of him 7 times.

 

[cupid_stunt]

What fascinates me about this whole thing is how the pilot survived. He wasn't even seriously injured from what I recall.

How on earth did that happen?

Missed this earlier.

When the aircraft broke up, the cockpit separated from the rest of the aircraft ending in a ditch, he was thrown out of it, and left lying on the ground.

He was seriously injured and admitted to hospital in a critical condition, and placed into an induced coma.

 

[Rosemary Jest]

Missed this earlier.

When the aircraft broke up, the cockpit separated from the rest of the aircraft ending in a ditch, he was thrown out of it, and left lying on the ground.

He was seriously injured and admitted to hospital in a critical condition, and placed into an induced coma.

Still, absolutely a miracle he survived, people die falling over, plus he didn't take long to be discharged from hospital. Hard to believe really, watching the footage of the crash now.

He must have been going 300 odd mph what he crashed.

 

[cupid_stunt]

He must have been going 300 odd mph what he crashed.

The plane was 800ft below the minimum safe height, when the plane was flying at 105 knots, rather than the 150 knots considered the minimum.
Shoreham plane flew too low for loop the loop, disaster report says

105 knots is only 120mph.

IIRC is was about 3 weeks when he was discharged from the specialist hospital, I can't remember the details of how long it took him to totally recover.

But, yeah, he was very fucking lucky to survive.

 

[Poi E]

.

But, yeah, he was very fucking lucky to survive.

Wonder how he feels about that.

 

[Nivag]

Wonder how he feels about that.

Not guilty..

 

[cupid_stunt]

I was talking to my brother last night about this, he was at the airshow with my youngest niece & her b/f, so the coverage of the court case has brought back all the memories of witnessing it, the shock & horror of it all.

I was in my garden when I spotted this big cloud of smoke in the distance, I am under 6 miles from Shoreham airport, and was wondering what it was, when I over heard a neighbour say there had been a crash at the airshow, my heart sunk knowing I had family there. Needless to say we couldn't actually make contact for some hours, as the mobile phone networks couldn't cope with demand, it was a scary time.

I called my S-i-L to let her know, but she was already aware, she had just been urgently called in by Worthing hospital, as they were expecting a lot of admissions, needless to say she was worried sick and fearing her husband, step daughter & B/F could well be on the admissions list.

The crash was early afternoon & it wasn't until early evening when finally a text message arrived saying they were safe & well, but trapped at the airport. Big relief all round.

There's 2 routes in & out of the airport, the main one is to north and the A27 dual carriage way, which was the crash scene. The other is via a narrow lane heading south to the single carriage way A259, which was totally grid-locked because traffic from the A27 had been diverted down, meaning it took hours to get out of the airport. They finally got home between 10 & 11 pm that night.

There was a very strange atmosphere around the town for the next couple of weeks, impossible to describe, everyone just seemed so shocked - the airshow had been such a big thing for the area, for so long.

I was very much on 'the sidelines', but it seriously impacted on me, and more so for the rest of the family mentioned in this post.