Paramedics doubt Dr Kelly's 'suicide' cause

[Stobart Stopper]

So if you were going to bump someone off (via bumbling yet invisible hitmen) because they might reveal some dark secrets, would you do it before they'd given a long and exclusive interview with one of the world's largest media organisations, or after?

Well that all depends, doesn't it? It well documented that media organisations are riddled with people who are on the unofficial payroll of our security services. They serve a purpose I suppose. That's one of the reasons Shayler came to light, he spoke to the wrong people, got busted before he really had the chance to blow the lid.

Andrew Gilligan was, IMO, not an MI5/6 glove puppet and that's why he was able to get Kelly to speak to him like he did.
You have to remember though, that any phone, mobile or landline can be listened to at any time and you would never even know about it. People who rock the boat a bit, be it Princess Diana, government ministers or the Prince of Wales, fall victim to these spies and that's how much of what you see in the media in regard to scandals really comes out.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Justin, your inability to inform yourself does not make other people 'wrong'.

http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/hearing_trans.htm

Yes, we can all Google. Will I find "people in black combats" in the index? Perhaps you'd be so kind as to direct me to the relevant passages? I'm off till Friday now (unless I look in briefly tonight) so I'm sure somebody will have a quote for me by then.

In the meantime, facts, please. They're stubborn things.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

you do, indeed, have to eliminate other possibilities, and you then have to be left with a very narrow range of remaining possibilities, otherwise there's no "truth". And of course the conspiracists have done neither. Not even started, in fact.

The combination of pills and wrist-cuts was not enough to be fatal - an inquest would be able to confirm this and eliminate this impossibility. That would be a good start, then we could look at the remaining possibilities.

 

[editor]

Princess Diana,.

I wish you'd keep her Royal Toffness out of this thread.

 

[Loki]

How did these half-digested pills get into Kelly's stomache? A dead man can't digest pills. He can only have taken them himself.

 

[editor]

As has been pointed out earlier, perhaps 'they' felt that Kelly was reliable, and only after he'd spoken to the BBC (not a "long and exclusive" interview as you keep repeating, but a twenty minute chat in a hotel bar - you make it sound like he was talking to Martin Bashir FFS) did 'they' realise that he might drop them in it.

I'd call a twenty minute, one to one interview with a BBC journo, "long and exclusive".

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Here... I'll help you out, Justin... Open wide... here comes the choo choo...


Look at 2/9/03 and the testemony given by Louise Holms - she found the body. Cross reference that with the testimony of the police officer she met on the track.

Get back to me when you have done that.

Refer to me as 'a conspiracist' again and I'll track you down like a dog, strap you into a chair and read the whole report to you in person.

And why the fuck should 'somebody' cut everything into little pieces and spoonfeed you bite-sized 'facts'? It's your expectation that I should do this for you that leads you to swallow whatever shit is fed to you through the usual channels.

Read for yourself, think for yourself. If you go about willingly contracting out the process of absorbing and filtering information to proxies, it's hardly surprising you end up forming opinions and views that have no basis in fact and rationality, yet conform to what you are told to believe.

 

[editor]

Read for yourself, think for yourself. If you go about willingly contracting out the process of absorbing and filtering information to proxies, it's hardly surprising you end up forming opinions and views that have no basis in fact and rationality, yet conform to what you are told to believe.

How did he swallow and digest the tablets if he was murdered?

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

How did he swallow and digest the tablets if he was murdered?

See. There you go. You want me to speculate, so that you can jump about and tell me I'm speculating and demand 'evidence' to support it.

This would be fair enough if you were inviting me to speculate with you with the purpose of furthering our knowledge, but you aren't. You are engaging in your usual polemics.

Tell you what - read the Hutton transcripts yourself, then if there is any contained with it that you find curious or inconsistant, we can both speculate on that.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

How did these half-digested pills get into Kelly's stomache? A dead man can't digest pills. He can only have taken them himself.

Which proves what? That it must have been suicide? But they weren't a fatal dose. So what is an alternative explanation...

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Maybe he had a headache?


Doh! Was that speculation?

 

[editor]

See. There you go. You want me to speculate, so that you can jump about and tell me I'm speculating and demand 'evidence' to support it.

If you're saying he was murdered, it's reasonable to expect you to provide some kind of coherent, credible theory as to how it happened.

Any chance of that?

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

If you're saying he was murdered, it's reasonable to expect you to provide some kind of coherent, credible theory as to how it happened.

Any chance of that?

No. As I have quite clearly stated, I will not engage in your stupid polemic argument by speculating just so that you can start demanding 'evidence' for such.

I understand it's about the only style of debate that you wish to engage in, and that's up to you.

How about you provide me with some coherent, credible theory as to why there are such gaping inconsistancies between different witnesses statements in the Hutton Report transcripts?

I know that there is absolutely no chance of that, as you haven't even read them, have you?

 

[Stobart Stopper]

I wish you'd keep her Royal Toffness out of this thread.

Tough shit, it's my thread I shall do as I please.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

I've just spent an extended lunch reading through the Hutton Enquiry Transcripts. The bits that mention Dr Kelly that is - not the whole thing obviously.

Everyone who saw the body says much the same. A LOT of blood around the left wrist, arm and left side.

Some people noticed a lot of blood on the ground also.

I've haven't found anything yet that would prompt the slightest bit of suspicion.

Read for yourself:

Hutton Transcripts

They're formatted and searchable on this site.

 

[tobyjug]

I've just spent an extended lunch reading through the Hutton Enquiry Transcripts. The bits that mention Dr Kelly that is - not the whole thing obviously.

Everyone who saw the body says much the same. A LOT of blood around the left wrist, arm and left side.

A lot is not exactly a technical description. A 1/2 pint of blood is enough to paint a room with, 5 pints is enough paint a house.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

A lot is not exactly a technical description. A 1/2 pint of blood is enough to paint a room with, 5 pints is enough paint a house.

10 times better than Dulux one coat mega paint!

Are you suggesting someone nicked his blood to paint their masonic temple?

 

[editor]

A lot is not exactly a technical description. A 1/2 pint of blood is enough to paint a room with, 5 pints is enough paint a house.

Eh?

Where are you getting this from?

 

[Idris2002]

How large a house are we talking about here?

 

[Lock&Light]

How large a house are we talking about here?

A sizable dolls' house, I would think.

 

[editor]

Tell you what - read the Hutton transcripts yourself, then if there is any contained with it that you find curious or inconsistant, we can both speculate on that.

MR DINGEMANS.: An obvious injury to his left arm. What was that injury?
MR CHAPMAN: In as far as it was all covered in blood....

MS HOLMES: His legs were straight in front of him. His right arm was to the side of him. His left arm had a lot of blood on it and was bent back in a funny position

POLICE CONSTABLE DEAN FRANKLIN: There was a fair amount of blood to the left wrist area and on the left hand, and a fair amount of blood sort of puddled around...

POLICE CONSTABLE SAWYER: Lying on its back with its head at the base of a tree, a large tree. The head was tilted to the left. The right arm was by the side. The left arm was palm down. There was a large amount of blood on the back of the left arm. There was a watch and a curved knife by that wrist.

POLICE CONSTABLE SAWYER: I could not see any actual injuries because the injuries, I believe, were hidden by the wrist being turned down. But there was a large amount of blood there...

So. Lots of blood then.

 

[Idris2002]

A sizable dolls' house, I would think.

One with toys in the attic, no doubt. . .

 

[Lock&Light]

One with toys in the attic, no doubt. . .

Or, perhaps, bats in the belfry.

 

[tobyjug]

Eh?

Where are you getting this from?

Serious forensic science programs, study of the subject and my wife's medical experience. A small quantity of blood will cover a very large area. Which is why most members of the general public shit themselves when the witness an injury with blood spurting every where.
5 pints of blood will cover a huge area, and when I stated paint a house I meant a house.

 

[Loki]

Which proves what? That it must have been suicide? But they weren't a fatal dose. So what is an alternative explanation...

My point is, a huge amount of paracetamol was found half-digested in his stomache, but less than a lethal dose, possibly enough for liver damage if not treated. I can't see how he could have been forced to swallow all those pills.

Suggests to me that it was his first bungled attempt at suicide.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

Serious forensic science programs, study of the subject and my wife's medical experience. A small quantity of blood will cover a very large area. Which is why most members of the general public shit themselves when the witness an injury with blood spurting every where.
5 pints of blood will cover a huge area, and when I stated paint a house I meant a house.

he's right, Pig went to many an incident/accident where there has been what seems to be a huge loss of blood, but then when they do the inquest, it turns out to be not as much as first thought.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

I've haven't found anything yet that would prompt the slightest bit of suspicion.

Then keep reading.

MR KNOX: Were there any tracks, as it were, around the wooded area you were able to see, where the body was, or had the person obviously walked in through the woods?

MS HOLMES: Not that I remember seeing, but ...

-

MR KNOX: And what did you then do?

MS HOLMES: We walked back towards the car. On the way to the car we met three police officers and Paul took them back to show them where the body was, and I went back to the car.

MR KNOX: Did you meet the police officers in the woods or after you got out of the woods?

MS HOLMES: No, on the track, just between the woods and the car.

-

MR DINGEMANS.: And did you help them when they had arrived?

MR CHAPMAN: Yes. As we were going down the path we met three police officers coming the other way that were from CID. We identified ourselves to them. They were not actually aware that (a) the body had been found or we were out searching this area. They I think had just come out on their own initiative to look at the area. I informed them we had found the body and they asked me to take them back to indicate where it was.

MR DINGEMANS.: So these were not the people you had arranged to meet, as it were?

MR CHAPMAN: No, because this was only 2 or 3 minutes after I had made the phone call.

MR DINGEMANS.: How did you know they were police officers?

MR CHAPMAN: Because they showed me their Thames Valley Police identification.

MR DINGEMANS.: Do you recall their names?

MR CHAPMAN: Only one of them was DC Coe.

MR DINGEMANS.: Did you show them the body?

MR CHAPMAN: Yes. We walked back up the hill with the three of them and then they decided as they got a bit closer to the edge of the wood that I needed only to take one of the officers in, so I took DC Coe in to show him where the body was.

-

MR KNOX: And what did they say to you?

COE: Mr Chapman told me that they had found a body in the woods.

MR KNOX: Who were you with at this time?

COE: Detective Constable Shields.

MR KNOX: It is just the two of you?

COE: Yes.

So, what's the coherent, credible theory for this discrepency? There are,in fact, no less than FIVE witnesses that testified that Coe had TWO companions.

Why was DC Shields not called to give evidence?

And what were Coe, Shields and the Mystery Man doing there in the first place, since they were apparently not part of the official search team?

Serious question, editor: Do you trust the police?

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Then keep reading.

That looks a bit wobbly the way it's quoted here. Can you link to all info in it's original context please?

--/ Found it. No need to link. Tar.

 

[editor]

5 pints of blood will cover a huge area, and when I stated paint a house I meant a house.

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble believing that 5 pints of blood would completely cover a normal sized house (not that I'm sure what the point is seeing as most of Kelly's blood would have escaped into the porous earth).

Have you a source for this claim please?

 

[editor]

Serious question, editor: Do you trust the police?

Not particularly. But I distrust conspiracy fans even less.