Papers, please - covid passport bollocks

[A380]

There is no right to choose staff. You may have a right to refuse but this may result in being refused care in extreme situations. Hospitals try to accommodate but do not have a duty to provide alternative staff.

I only want to be treated by Dr C Lion.

 

[mojo pixy]

There is no right to choose staff. You may have a right to refuse but this may result in being refused care in extreme situations. Hospitals try to accommodate but do not have a duty to provide alternative staff.

There is a limited right to choose not to be attended by certain staff, but it exists within equality legislation and assessments of the balance of risks.

This in the 21st century, not the 19th century. Doctors and healthcare providers nowadays have to make any reasonable adjustments they are asked by patients / service users / staff to make - or justify why they do not, with reference to various laws and regulations.

You should stop posting as if the healthcare system you once knew (if that claim is even true) is the healthcare system we have in 2021. Seriously.

Total bollocks. Except when it is compulsory for the job like Hep C in certain areas. Hospitals do not have access to personal health files held by GPs or even in many cases Occupational Health who have strict rules on disclosure and confidentiality.

How would a manager know if someone had Influenza, Covid or other vaccine given off site?

Because they err ask staff, and are allowed (if not obliged) by law to keep records. If information about a particular inoculation is missing for a particular staff member the assumption is made they are unvaccinated and certain risk assessments and sets of consequences will apply. The staff member will be asked to get done, and records of all this will be kept. This is a legal duty under H&S 1974, MoH&S 1999, RIDDOR and/or other regulations I am less familiar with.

Like I say, this is 2021 not 19fucking50

I don't have patience for any more of this. YOU are the sealion and I claim my five fish.

 

[A380]

There is a limited right to choose not to be attended by certain staff, but it exists within equality legislation and assessments of the balance of risks.

This in the 21st century, not the 19th century. Doctors and healthcare providers nowadays have to make any reasonable adjustments they are asked by patients / service users / staff to make - or justify why they do not, with reference to various laws and regulations.

You should stop posting as if the healthcare system you once knew (if that claim is even true) is the healthcare system we have in 2021. Seriously.



Because they err ask staff, and are obliged by law to keep records. If information about a particular inoculation is missing for a particular staff member the assumption is made they are unvaccinated and certain risk assessments and sets of consequences will apply. The staff member will be asked to get done, and records of all this will be kept. This is a legal duty under H&S 1974, MoH&S 1999, RIDDOR and no doubt other regulations I am less familiar with.

Like I say, this is 2021 not 19fucking50

I don't have patience for any more of this. YOU are the sealion and I claim my five fish.

I predict an ignore coming..

 

[Pickman's model]

I predict an ignore coming..

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Or rather a pseudoignore

 

[mojo pixy]

I predict an ignore coming..

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Like sunshine on a rainy day

 

[Pickman's model]

I only want to be treated by Dr C Lion.

Sure sealion would have some pungent comments on the matter at hand. Just noticed if you take the first two letters of each word of border reiver's name you arrive at an apt description of him

 

[Border Reiver]

There is a limited right to choose not to be attended by certain staff, but it exists within equality legislation and assessments of the balance of risks.

This in the 21st century, not the 19th century. Doctors and healthcare providers nowadays have to make any reasonable adjustments they are asked by patients / service users / staff to make - or justify why they do not, with reference to various laws and regulations.

You should stop posting as if the healthcare system you once knew (if that claim is even true) is the healthcare system we have in 2021. Seriously.



Because they err ask staff, and are obliged by law to keep records. If information about a particular inoculation is missing for a particular staff member the assumption is made they are unvaccinated and certain risk assessments and sets of consequences will apply. The staff member will be asked to get done, and records of all this will be kept. This is a legal duty under H&S 1974, MoH&S 1999, RIDDOR and no doubt other regulations I am less familiar with.

Like I say, this is 2021 not 19fucking50

I don't have patience for any more of this. YOU are the sealion and I claim my five fish.

One word 'Agency'. You never know details of Agency staff.

You misunderstand health and safety legislation. There is no requirement for hospitals to determine the general innoculation status of staff. If you believe that, produce the regulations requiring it. Staff must not be put at risk, but this does not require compulsory innoculation in most cases. If you believe so produce specific regulations requiring vaccination for general staff.

 

[Shechemite]

bullshitting as the reason someone is off is personal and they do t want it shared.. most likely.

Like I said. Depressingly cynical. The idea that interactions that happen in a care setting are driven purely by game theory. I think life is a bit less grim than that

 

[mojo pixy]

One word 'Agency'. You never know details of Agency staff.

You misunderstand health and safety legislation. There is no requirement for hospitals to determine the general innoculation status of staff. If you believe that, produce the regulations requiring it. Staff must not be put at risk, but this does not require compulsory innoculation in most cases. If you believe so produce specific regulations requiring vaccination for general staff.

Dude, agencies are legally allowed** to collect and keep inoculation info on their staff. Agency clients can request only vaccinated staff, if they want, and the agency must comply.

As for the rest, you're all over the place. Yesterday, 'many countries' mandate flu vaccines for healthcare staff, today, 'this does not require compulsory inoculation'.

Please, put me on ignore. Better still, stop wibbling on about stuff you obviously know nothing about.

** edited from required to allowed. Apologies, my high horse was jumping about a little too friskily. See my later post for a link to evidence...

 

[IC3D]

Like I said. Depressingly cynical. The idea that interactions that happen in a care setting are driven purely by game theory. I think life is a bit less grim than that

it's not game theory to have a personal life away from work. In fact it is needed in many settings.

 

[Shechemite]

One word 'Agency'. You never know details of Agency staff.

There’s a chap who works agency here. Nice fella (in his own way). Let’s call him Solomon

I know (well, I have been told by other staff/residents) about Solomon:

• Is Turkish
• Is a bit deaf
• the town he lives in
• His wife used to work here
• Said wife stopped working here after a verbal altercation with another member of staff

I also know that he may not have the second jab (because he was loudly moaning about it in the staff room at around 9.20pm)

So plenty of personal information that I have no ‘right’ to, which has not come to me from any malicious intent of mine or anyone else’s. (The disclosures made to me about Solomon by others were all made when they were talking fondly about him, so I don’t think it’s malicious; and I can’t be blamed for poor Solomon’s inability to keep his voice down).

The ‘right’ to control ones personal information is meaningless. There are all manner of legal caveats to the ‘right’ to privacy/confidentiality/data security/whatever; it’s a ‘right’ that is virtually impossible to effectively uphold - which is perhaps why the NHS breaches the data protection legislation so often

 

[Shechemite]

it's not game theory to have a personal life away from work. In fact it is needed in many settings.

Yes?

 

[Border Reiver]

I predict an ignore coming..

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I only ignore for abuse.

 

[andysays]

One of the staff here (let’s call them Clive) has been off for two months.

I (along with another tenant) asked another member of staff if Clive was ok. This other member of staff told us Clive was recovering from an operation. We (other tenant and myself) have sent a card - via the area manager - to Clive.

Apart from the fact that this demonstrates that not everything in care is a power dynamic (as much as BR would like it to be), I’d be surprised if anyone’s human rights were breached in the incident I’ve described

I'd agree with this post, but that isn't the same as claiming that you necessarily have a right to know anything more than the limited info you were given

If you or anyone else had asked what sort of operation, or any more specific details of Clive's medical issues, I hope you'd have been told it wasn't appropriate for that info to be divulged.

And relating to the specific question of vaccinations, I think it's reasonable for managers to know if someone working in a care environment hasn't had a vaccination, so that extra mitigation measures to protect both them and their clients/patients can be taken.

But it isn't appropriate for those clients to he able to demand specific medical details are made known to them.

 

[crossthebreeze]

This might be a bit of a tangent, but are your parents still in their own home or in a care home?

The reason I ask is because I recently discovered that my neighbour, who is a care worker going into people's own homes rather than in care homes, wasn't offered a jab as a priority but had to wait until her age cohort was offered.

If we're concerned about protecting the vulnerable, this appears to me to be potentially far more significant than whatever number of care workers are are actually refusing to be vaccinated.

Who can get the coronavirus (COVID-19) vaccine

Frontline social care workers
You can get the COVID-19 vaccine if you're a social care worker who provides face-to-face care or support to children or adults at higher risk from coronavirus.

For example:

• you are a registered professional in social care (such as a social worker or nurse)
• you work in residential care, nursing care or in supported living
• you provide personal care for people in their homes

You are not currently eligible if you care for children who are not at high risk from coronavirus (clinically extremely vulnerable), for example as a childminder or nursery nurse.

Contact your employer, GP surgery or local authority about getting vaccinated.

The very first cohort was care workers who specifically worked in care homes for elderly people, but that was very soon broadened out to include domiciliary care workers and care and support workers for younger disabled people too. There was at one point an issue with people who worked directly for a disabled person as PAs getting registered, but that got resolved for the people I know too.

 

[Border Reiver]

Yes?

Willing disclosure differs from disclosure by an employer or other person/organisation who has it as protected information.

 

[A380]

I only ignore for abuse.

Three times you have told me that I was on ignore and twice you have forgotten and replied...

 

[mojo pixy]

There is no requirement for hospitals to determine the general innoculation status of staff. If you believe that, produce the regulations requiring it.

Please read this, and understand it will (probably) apply to any inoculation, not just to covid.

Please pay particular attention to the bit I've bolded below...

Can I collect data about whether my employees are vaccinated against COVID-19?

Before you decide to collect your employees vaccination status, you should be clear about what you are trying to achieve and how recording staff vaccination status will help you to achieve this. Whether your employee has been vaccinated is their private health information and is therefore special category data. Your use of this data must be fair, necessary and relevant for a specific purpose.

Data protection is only one of many factors to consider when asking employees whether they have received the COVID-19 vaccine. You should take into account:

• employment law and your contracts with employees;
• health and safety requirements; and
• equalities and human rights issues.

You should also consider other regulations in your industry and the latest government guidance for your sector.

Your reason for recording your employees’ vaccination status must be clear and compelling. If you have no specified use for this information and are recording it on a ‘just in case’ basis, or if you can achieve your goal without collecting this data, you are unlikely to be able to justify collecting it. You should also take into account that accepting the offer of a vaccine is a personal decision which could be influenced by a number of factors. When deciding whether to record this data, you should also consider current public health advice about the vaccine and government guidelines.

The sector you work in, the kind of work your staff do and the health and safety risks in your workplace should help you to decide if you have compelling reasons to record whether your staff have had the COVID-19 vaccine. For example, if your employees:

• work in a health and social care setting or somewhere they are likely to encounter those infected with COVID-19; or
• could pose a risk to clinically vulnerable individuals,

this may form part of your justification for collecting employee vaccination status. However, if you only keep on record who is vaccinated for monitoring purposes, it is more difficult to justify holding this information.

The collection of this information must not result in any unfair or unjustified treatment of employees and should only be used for purposes they would reasonably expect. You should treat staff fairly and if the collection of this information is likely to have a negative consequence for an employee, you must be able to justify it. When considering fairness, you should remember that different people are offered the vaccine at different times and some people may not yet have been offered a vaccination.

If the use of this data is likely to result in a high risk to individuals (eg denial of employment opportunities) then you need to complete a data protection impact assessment.

 

[Shechemite]

I'd agree with this post, but that isn't the same as claiming that you necessarily have a right to know anything more than the limited info you were given

If you or anyone else had asked what sort of operation, or any more specific details of Clive's medical issues, I hope you'd have been told it wasn't appropriate for that info to be divulged.

And relating to the specific question of vaccinations, I think it's reasonable for managers to know if someone working in a care environment hasn't had a vaccination, so that extra mitigation measures to protect both them and their clients/patients can be taken.

But it isn't appropriate for those clients to he able to demand specific medical details are made known to them.

My point there is wasn’t about whether I or anyone has the right to know anything.

My point was that you’re insane if you think you can enforce your ‘right’ to control what other people know about you.

 

[Shechemite]

But it isn't appropriate for those clients to he able to demand specific medical details are made known to them.

Demand? Why demand anything when you can just politely ask?

 

[WouldBe]

How would a manager know if someone had Influenza, Covid or other vaccine given off site?

Because medical information is shared across services. I had my first covid jab the other week at a site not run by my GP. It showed up on my medical records almost straight away and was entered by the person who gave me the jab.

 

[Shechemite]

“Hi x how’re you? I’m looking forward to getting the second dose of the vaccine, start getting back to normal. When’s yours?”

Where’s the demand?

Whether x says “nice to hear you’re in good spirits, yes I’m doing ok. I’m having the second jab next week” or “as a freeman, my rights under Magna Carta mean you don’t have the right to know”, I’m going to come away from the conversation feeling confident I know one way or the other if they’re vaccine-compliant.

 

[Border Reiver]

Because medical information is shared across services. I had my first covid jab the other week at a site not run by my GP. It showed up on my medical records almost straight away and was entered by the person who gave me the jab.

Managers do not have access to such records. Occupational Health do.

 

[Border Reiver]

Please read this, and understand it will (probably) apply to any inoculation, not just to covid.

Please pay particular attention to the bit I've bolded below...

Can I collect data about whether my employees are vaccinated against COVID-19?

Before you decide to collect your employees vaccination status, you should be clear about what you are trying to achieve and how recording staff vaccination status will help you to achieve this. Whether your employee has been vaccinated is their private health information and is therefore special category data. Your use of this data must be fair, necessary and relevant for a specific purpose.

Data protection is only one of many factors to consider when asking employees whether they have received the COVID-19 vaccine. You should take into account:

• employment law and your contracts with employees;
• health and safety requirements; and
• equalities and human rights issues.

You should also consider other regulations in your industry and the latest government guidance for your sector.

Your reason for recording your employees’ vaccination status must be clear and compelling. If you have no specified use for this information and are recording it on a ‘just in case’ basis, or if you can achieve your goal without collecting this data, you are unlikely to be able to justify collecting it. You should also take into account that accepting the offer of a vaccine is a personal decision which could be influenced by a number of factors. When deciding whether to record this data, you should also consider current public health advice about the vaccine and government guidelines.

The sector you work in, the kind of work your staff do and the health and safety risks in your workplace should help you to decide if you have compelling reasons to record whether your staff have had the COVID-19 vaccine. For example, if your employees:

• work in a health and social care setting or somewhere they are likely to encounter those infected with COVID-19; or
• could pose a risk to clinically vulnerable individuals,

this may form part of your justification for collecting employee vaccination status. However, if you only keep on record who is vaccinated for monitoring purposes, it is more difficult to justify holding this information.

The collection of this information must not result in any unfair or unjustified treatment of employees and should only be used for purposes they would reasonably expect. You should treat staff fairly and if the collection of this information is likely to have a negative consequence for an employee, you must be able to justify it. When considering fairness, you should remember that different people are offered the vaccine at different times and some people may not yet have been offered a vaccination.

If the use of this data is likely to result in a high risk to individuals (eg denial of employment opportunities) then you need to complete a data protection impact assessment.

It can be collected. There is no requirement to collect. There is no reason to share it with a third party.

All I have said is that patients have no right to such information.

 

[Shechemite]

You have no right. No right at all!

 

[Border Reiver]

My point there is wasn’t about whether I or anyone has the right to know anything.

My point was that you’re insane if you think you can enforce your ‘right’ to control what other people know about you.

You can stop third parties sharing the information without permission. With patients for instance.

 

[A380]

You have no right. No right at all!

You have no Authority Here Border Reiver! NO AUTHORITY AT ALL!

 

[Border Reiver]

Three times you have told me that I was on ignore and twice you have forgotten and replied...

I ignore duri g that discussion and when the abusive potty nout has calmed down and returned to acting as an adult I consider taking them off ignore. It is merely a shirt term method of stopping stupid people using abuse rather than debate.

 

[A380]

I ignore duri g that discussion and when the abusive potty nout has calmed down and returned to acting as an adult I consider taking them off ignore. It is merely a shirt term method of stopping stupid people using abuse rather than debate.

Oh yes I see. That has a ring of truth about it...
I shouldn’t bother with me then.

 

[Shechemite]

You can stop third parties sharing the information without permission. With patients for instance.

Short of following them everywhere, no, you can’t do any such thing.