Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here" - NY Times

[editor]

The increase in wild flowers due to sheep grazing leads to an increase in insects that feed off them and hence an increase in birds that feed off the insects. So meat production can lead to an increase in wildlife. Also letting sheep graze on hillsides keeps the bracken down which would rapidly take over which AFAIK is no use for anything.

If you let cows graze you get hay meadows which again results in more wildlife not less.

Have you got a credible source for these claims please. Thanks

 

[WouldBe]

Have you got a credible source for these claims please. Thanks

See post #528.
I also know it from experience from when I spent a year working as a botanist for the Nature Conservancy Council cataloguing all the plants in the Derbyshire dales. Unfortunately I don't have a USB socket in my head to download it.

 

[editor]

See post #528.
I also know it from experience from when I spent a year working as a botanist for the Nature Conservancy Council cataloguing all the plants in the Derbyshire dales. Unfortunately I don't have a USB socket in my head to download it.

That really doesn't back up all your claims.

 

[WouldBe]

That really doesn't back up all your claims.

How about this then? http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/612038#:~:text=Sheep are very selective grazers,which is often trampled instead.

E2a: I included the whole article rather than cherry picking bits so you can see both the pros and cons. In my opinion there are more pros for grazing.

 

[editor]

How about this then? http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/612038#:~:text=Sheep are very selective grazers,which is often trampled instead.

E2a: I included the whole article rather than cherry picking bits so you can see both the pros and cons. In my opinion there are more pros for grazing.

I can't be arsed to download a PDF but there is an abundance of evidence showing that sheep grazing is not all positive for the environment as you incorrectly claim.

Sheep and cattle grazing can impact negatively on soil structure through trampling, which may lead to increased erosion, decreased soil biodiversity and organic carbon, through leaching and volatilisation losses of nutrients, particularly nitrogen and phosphorus, and through the redistribution or enhanced germination of weeds Scott and Robertson 2009;Sharpley and West 2009).

Sheep and cattle grazing can impact negatively on soil structure through trampling, which may lead to increased erosion, decreased soil biodiversity and organic carbon, through leaching and volatilisation losses of nutrients, particularly nitrogen and phosphorus, and through the redistribution or enhanced germination of weeds Scott and Robertson 2009;Sharpley and West 2009).

 

[Funky_monks]

I can't be arsed to download a PDF but there is an abundance of evidence showing that sheep grazing is not all positive for the environment as you incorrectly claim.

Trampling is now thought to improve soil structure.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

So you've decided to employ some tokenism to support an antisemitic post.
Blimey.

I adhere to the old fashioned notion that survivors get to make sense of and describe their experience in their own way. I also adhere to the old fashioned notion that when I post something, I have a responsibility to provide evidentiary support.

 

[WouldBe]

Trampling is now thought to improve soil structure.

And according to the article I linked to causes bare patches allowing seeds to embed in the soil and germinate thereby increasing biodiversity.

 

[WouldBe]

I can't be arsed to download a PDF but there is an abundance of evidence showing that sheep grazing is not all positive for the environment as you incorrectly claim.

I'm not sure how grazing can lead to a loss of nitrogen in the soil when animal piss is rich in nitrogen.

 

[Funky_monks]

I'm not sure how grazing can lead to a loss of nitrogen in the soil when animal piss is rich in nitrogen.

Therein lies one of the many complexities of sustainable Agriculture. Nitrates are both necessary for fertility, but also, when they evaporate, are greenhouse gases.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That article doesn't say where these practices took place but could be the US as the author is based there. Did you look at the references? Most of them date back to the 70's and 80's. Is this still relevant? or is it an article about what happened? As it's not clear.

It's a standard practice everywhere. If you search 'breeder broilers' + 'restricted diet', 'intermittent fasting' or 'ad libitum feeding' you'll see hundreds of peer reviewed articles about it up to the present. You also see it mentioned in DEFRA's animal welfare code of practice published in 2018 at paras 122-123 (albeit articulated in euphemistic language): https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/694013/meat-chicken-code-march2018.pdf

It is incontrovertible that both the vast majority of broiler chickens are bred from fast-growing genotypes and that broiler breeders are subject to restricted diets. Funky_monks denies this because he is a pathological liar, a bullshitter and an apologist for the animal-industrial complex. And you aren't much better.

 

[belboid]

It’s important to note however that (1) there are alternatives to mulesing to prevent or reduce the risk of flystrike (see e.g. Progress on alternatives to mulesing | Autumn 2015 | Sheep Notes newsletter | Newsletters | Support and resources | Agriculture Victoria) and (2) flystrike is only a problem in the first place because sheep have been selectively bred to have thick wool.

Selectively breeding animals to make them more exploitable is cruelty literally built into the DNA of the animal agriculture industries. The huge swollen udders of the dairy cow, the intensive laying cycles of hens, the fast-growing broiler chickens whose legs give way under the weight of their own bodies. Farmers then use these health problems that they're responsible for to justify further brutal practices like mulesing. Another 'corrective' is keeping fast growing broiler breeders on the brink of starvation to prevent them from dying of heart attacks before they reach the age of sexual maturity.

That there is fucking loads wrong with the meat industry is undeniable and I have no desire to do so. But quoting PETA is like quoting the Stalin Society when wanting to criticise capitalism. They might be right occasionally, but still, fuck them.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That there is fucking loads wrong with the meat industry is undeniable and I have no desire to do so. But quoting PETA is like quoting the Stalin Society when wanting to criticise capitalism. They might be right occasionally, but still, fuck them.

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of PETA, but I was more making the point critiquing their opposition to mulesing on the basis that it reduces the risk of fly strike is too quick.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

This is horrific. I wouldn't buy regular turkey meat these days (much as I enjoy it).

Turkeys ‘kicked hundreds of times and left wounded at farms supplying Sainsbury and Asda’ | The Independent

 

[editor]

This is horrific. I wouldn't buy regular turkey meat these days (much as I enjoy it).

Turkeys ‘kicked hundreds of times and left wounded at farms supplying Sainsbury and Asda’ | The Independent

Violence and cruelty go hand in hand with the meat industry. Always has.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Violence and cruelty go hand in hand with the meat industry. Always has.

Well, yes. But I've changed my mind as to what I'm willing to buy. Will prob still have turkey on Xmas day, as going to my mum's. Would buy turkey (and pork) again (occasionally) if I could hook up with a more ethical local supply.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Therein lies one of the many complexities of sustainable Agriculture. Nitrates are both necessary for fertility, but also, when they evaporate, are greenhouse gases.

And when nitrates contaminate drinking water, they cause birth defects and adverse brain effects in small children. It can also cause cancer including gliomas, lymphomas, and bone and breast cancers. Where I live its almost considered normal to get lymphoma when you reach a certain age and live on a farm.

 

[Funky_monks]

And when nitrates contaminate drinking water, they cause birth defects and adverse brain effects in small children. It can also cause cancer including gliomas, lymphomas, and bone and breast cancers. Where I live its almost considered normal to get lymphoma when you reach a certain age.

And yet nothing grows without them.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

And yet nothing grows without them.

When you have concentrated pools of manure from animal agriculture, it is guaranteed to contaminate water.

 

[Funky_monks]

When you have concentrated pools of manure from animal agriculture, it is guaranteed to contaminate water.

I think you are missing my point. Plants require nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus to grow. If you are going to grow and then remove plants (crop them), then these nutrients will need replacing.
In nature, thus is is achieved by soil microbes breaking down the dung of herbivores (and/or nitrogen fixing by leguminous plants)

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I think you are missing my point. Plants require nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus to grow. If you are going to grow and then remove plants (crop them), then these nutrients will need replacing.
In nature, thus is is achieved by soil microbes breaking down the dung of herbivores (and/or nitrogen fixing by leguminous plants)

I think you're missing mine.

 

[Funky_monks]

I think you're missing mine.

That you prefer slurry injectors to dribble bars?

 

[WouldBe]

When you have concentrated pools of manure from animal agriculture, it is guaranteed to contaminate water.

If you don't use animal manure you use artificial nitrates as fertilizer. Most nitrates are soluble in water so you can still get the same problem.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

If you don't use animal manure you use artificial nitrates as fertilizer. Most nitrates are soluble in water so you can still get the same problem.

I think you'll find that I'm not a fan of industrial agriculture in many of the forms it takes.

 

[Funky_monks]

I think you'll find that I'm not a fan of industrial agriculture in many of the forms it takes.

It doesn't matter if you are growing veg in your back garden or vast wheat prairies, soils still need nitrates, potassium and phosphorus.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

It doesn't matter if you are growing veg in your back garden or vast wheat prairies, soils still need nitrates, potassium and phosphorus.

There's ways to do that without creating giant pools of manure from confinement operations, or overusing chemical inputs.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

This is pretty hilarious. An animal rights activist somehow managed to trick fox news into interviewing him as the CEO of Smithfields (the world's leading animal torture corporation):

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Plants require nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus to grow.

And you require animals to be tortured, gassed and stabbed in the throat so you can eat sausages you utter knob.

 

[Funky_monks]

And you require animals to be tortured, gassed and stabbed in the throat so you can eat sausages you utter knob.

And you require animals to be shot and poisoned in their billions so that you can eat plants.

 

[Mab]

Here's an interesting piece that deserves a more considered response than the usual tag-team, shouting-over trolling that happens here.

Yes Thankyou Thankyou. I’ve been fighting for the animals since the mid eighties and fruit and veg workers that are explotied here in Canada and all over. Their numbers of infections by covid is despicable. Being a veggie for 38 years it’s sickening and never stops.

Opinion | The End of Meat Is Here (Published 2020)

If you care about the working poor, about racial justice, and about climate change, you have to stop eating animals.

www.nytimes.com

Oh, and seeing as the diet of the author seems to be of critical importance to some people, I looked it up. He's neither a vegan or a fully veggie.