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Milk's impact on the planet dairy, soya, rice, oat and almond compared

I'm sure there's a brilliant point in there somewhere. Anyway, non dairy milk....
Many people, including me and most Europeans, have coevolved with dairy farming such that we carry a gene variant that makes us produce the enzyme lactase throughout our lives rather than just in infancy when we need it to process our mothers' milk.

hth
 
Many people, including me and most Europeans, have coevolved with dairy farming such that we carry a gene variant that makes us produce the enzyme lactase throughout our lives rather than just in infancy when we need it to process our mothers' milk.

hth
Fascinating. But now we're perfectly capable of drinking equally tasty substitutes that don't involve cruelly exploiting animals.

Inflicting less unnecessary cruelty on our fellow animals is the kind of evolution I like.
 
Fascinating. But now we're perfectly capable of drinking equally tasty substitutes that don't involve cruelly exploiting animals.

Inflicting less unnecessary cruelty on our fellow animals is the kind of evolution I like.
Fine. But you have a bit of a history of producing descriptions of meat-eating or milk-drinking that are intended to reflect and produce a disgust reaction.

Our history as a species is a bit less simple than that. Farming of all kinds, including dairy farming, form an important part of our history and the story of the rise of humans to dominate the planet. There's a danger of a kind of unexamined self-hatred creeping in here when talking about meat or dairy eating in these disgust-induced terms.

Humans found new ways to exploit the resources around them, and in the process went forth and multiplied, and spread to all corners of the Earth. We have also caused a fair bit of mess along the way, but it will only be that same genius for clever exploitation of the world around us that can save us from our mess, not some attempted reversion to a pre-pasturalist Utopia that never actually existed.
 
equally tasty substitutes

You're really stretching it there with that one.

I'd rather drink a pint of prince Andrew's man fat than drink a glass of soya, rice, oat or almond milk instead of of the real deal.

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Fine. But you have a bit of a history of producing descriptions of meat-eating or milk-drinking that are intended to reflect and produce a disgust reaction.

Our history as a species is a bit less simple than that. Farming of all kinds, including dairy farming, form an important part of our history and the story of the rise of humans to dominate the planet. There's a danger of a kind of unexamined self-hatred creeping in here when talking about meat or dairy eating in these disgust-induced terms.

Humans found new ways to exploit the resources around them, and in the process went forth and multiplied, and spread to all corners of the Earth. We have also caused a fair bit of mess along the way, but it will only be that same genius for clever exploitation of the world around us that can save us from our mess, not some attempted reversion to a pre-pasturalist Utopia that never actually existed.
Ants milk aphids like we milk cows.
 
You're really stretching it there with that one.

I'd rather drink a pint of prince Andrew's man fat than drink a glass of soya, rice, oat or almond milk instead of of the real deal.
Maybe it's not for you but there clearly is no shortage of people discovering non-dairy milk and enjoying so much they keep coming back for more and more. That's why sales are surging massively and dairy sales are plummeting. I don't think people would keep on drinking it if they didn't like it.

Dairy farmers in Britain suffered a 50% reduction in their profits in just one year as the demand for cow’s milk steadily declines.

Statistics from FarmingUK’s 2018/2019 report, shared at a recently held Dairy Show, found that comparable farm profits dropped from 5.9p per liter (£383 per cow) to 2.69p per liter (£131 per cow) in the first quarter of 2019.

The Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (AHDB) reported that since February, 30-35 dairy farmers have quit the industry with only around 8,820 dairy producers left in Great Britain.
 
And it's not just milk sales crashing either:
Yoghurt sales have plummeted by more than £50m as an increasing number of Britons switch to vegan diets, a report has revealed.

Changing tastes and an increase in lactose intolerance has seen more people move towards milk and dairy free alternatives, leading to a 193 million fewer yoghurts being sold to shoppers in 2019.

 
Fine. But you have a bit of a history of producing descriptions of meat-eating or milk-drinking that are intended to reflect and produce a disgust reaction.
I find certainly do find the treatment of animals in some farms disgusting, particularly ones in the more industrial scale factory farms (where most of the meat eaten comes from). Only yesterday there was a report on a 'free range' chicken farm in the UK that was horrendous. Aren't you equally appalled? And they were supposed to be a 'kinder' farm!
 
tbf 8ball was probably reacting to the use of the word 'design'. But it's not a bad word to use for dairy cows. They've been designed by humans through selective breeding to produce loads of milk for human consumption. Might not like it much, but that's what has been done, over thousands of years. They're not really 'designed' for the cows' calves any more.
 
I find certainly do find the treatment of animals in some farms disgusting, particularly ones in the more industrial scale factory farms (where most of the meat eaten comes from). Only yesterday there was a report on a 'free range' chicken farm in the UK that was horrendous. Aren't you equally appalled? And they were supposed to be a 'kinder' farm!
I am appalled by all kinds of things that go on in modern farming, but does that mean any old response to it is ok? Doesn't it actually mean that it's really important for responses to it not to be inaccurate?
 
Fine. But you have a bit of a history of producing descriptions of meat-eating or milk-drinking that are intended to reflect and produce a disgust reaction.

Our history as a species is a bit less simple than that. Farming of all kinds, including dairy farming, form an important part of our history and the story of the rise of humans to dominate the planet. There's a danger of a kind of unexamined self-hatred creeping in here when talking about meat or dairy eating in these disgust-induced terms.

Humans found new ways to exploit the resources around them, and in the process went forth and multiplied, and spread to all corners of the Earth. We have also caused a fair bit of mess along the way, but it will only be that same genius for clever exploitation of the world around us that can save us from our mess, not some attempted reversion to a pre-pasturalist Utopia that never actually existed.
Too much sense. I see a thread ban in the offing.
 
Do you have any figures to back that up?
Everything I've read suggests that global milk supplies are rising again.
Feel free to invest heavily in the dairy industry if you're so sure. 🤣
Milk has a PR problem. Once a staple of the British household, milk consumption in the UK has fallen steadily over the last 70 years. In 2016, fresh milk sales were down by £54 million, according to research from The Grocer. In January of that year, the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (AHDB) announced that one in ten British dairy farms had closed since 2013. Despite the UK being the third largest producer of milk in the EU, the AHDB published a report this July stating that, “the free-from dairy market has been developing rapidly and has been consistently in double digit growth for the past few years.” The British public has spoken. Cow’s milk isn’t the essential it once was.

Since its consumption heyday in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, per-capita consumption of milk in the UK has fallen by one-third. The decline will continue, with more than one-third of those aged under 35 saying they are cutting back on consuming dairy.
Opinion: How we should tackle decline in milk sales - Farmers Weekly

Amid slumping dairy sales, farmers are moving onto other careers. One dairy farmer leaves the industry every week, new research finds.

The Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (AHDB) — a levy board funded by farmers — surveyed major milk buyers to learn more about the industry. AHDB discovered there are around 8,820 dairy producers in Great Britain. This figure has dropped by 30-35 since February.

The number of dairy cows in England has also declined. Defra statistics from June showed that the population of dairy cows who are more than two-years-old has dipped by 1.1 percent.

Meanwhile: The businesses proving that vegan= high growth in 2020
 
I am appalled by all kinds of things that go on in modern farming, but does that mean any old response to it is ok? Doesn't it actually mean that it's really important for responses to it not to be inaccurate?
The meat industry is riddled with cruelty. Which part of that statement is inaccurate?
 
I’ve tried the almond and oat milk drinks , they are nice as a drink but couldn’t stand them in tea
What's in the drinks though? We did a blind taste test on them as milks in work and I got a red card for my language when I drank the oat and the soya. The almond one was passable for me as I like almonds. I like milk as a drink but I know a lot of folk really don't get on with milk as a refreshing drink. It's each to their own innit.

Maybe it's not for you but there clearly is no shortage of people discovering non-dairy milk and enjoying so much they keep coming back for more and more. That's why sales are surging massively and dairy sales are plummeting. I don't think people would keep on drinking it if they didn't like it.


It's a fashion fad though isn't it. It was only five minutes ago that the chattering classes were drinking milk straight out of the cows tit probably because some celebs were spouting it's eternal youth juice qualities ;) Sales of unpasteurised were going mad.

Cheese tastes good, cream tastes good, yogurt tastes good, fromage friz tastes like jizz but in the middle of the night you need a cold glass of cows milk to nail a packet of Maryland cookies when you have the munch on mate.

Each to their own though. You enjoy milking your oats ;)
 
It's a fashion fad though isn't it. It was only five minutes ago that the chattering classes were drinking milk straight out of the cows tit probably because some celebs were spouting it's eternal youth juice qualities ;)
It's really not a fashion fad though. People don't keep on buying something they don't like. It's part of a huge shift that's going on in the UK. Three years ago, you'd be hard pressed to find any vegan food in any fast food restaurant anywhere, and now it's just about everywhere,with more outlets stocking more and more vegan food.

And that's a bloody good thing because we have to eat less meat.

Ih and there are very, very different qualities of non dairy milk. Some is awful, some is delicious. I've had people around the flat who had no idea they'd had non dairy milk in their coffee until I told them.
 
It's really not a fashion fad though. People don't keep on buying something they don't like. It's part of a huge shift that's going on in the UK. Three years ago, you'd be hard pressed to find any vegan food in any fast food restaurant anywhere, and now it's just about everywhere,with more outlets stocking more and more vegan food.

And that's a bloody good thing because we have to eat less meat.

Ih and there are very, very different qualities of non dairy milk. Some is awful, some is delicious. I've had people around the flat who had no idea they'd had non dairy milk in their coffee until I told them.
It is fashionable/on trend though currently isn't it and much of that increase in availability has been through satan's cock sucking marketing (Thanks Bill) company's pumping the vegan pound for every beat of it's meat free heart if the truth be known. A lot of those company's are just jumping on the bandwagon whist continuing to trough out the same goods that you see as part of the problem. Gregg's haven't stopped sticking sausage in the bake bean and cheese slice. (thank god), M&S are still selling corned beef to old ladies at 3 times the price of Aldi alongside their vegan peasnap and balsamic vinegar windfall oakleaf crisps. Let's not forget the rainbow wrap either :facepalm:

Yes there is a rise in people who are making changes to their eating habits based upon their conscience relating to climate change but they are a percentage of that on-trend shift in consumer habits not the entirety of it. Most of the people I know who use milk alternatives are doing it for fad diet purposes and all but one are meat eaters.

If people want to think that by going vegan they're part of a global movement then that's great, I think it's probably a good vehicle for change for some folk if they think they're doing it as a social concience movement, and I agree there are things we need to do about food production and the state of the planet but the rise in veganism isn't solely driven by people making those choices.

It's on trend and I would like to know how many of them are still vegans in 5, 10, 15 years time? This happened when we were teens didn't it with Mozzatarianism? Every other kid in school was a vegi for a term when I was in 5th year. All the edgy girls were eating nut roast and hedgehog crisps.

Anyway like I say, each to their own and I applaud your stance on this but to think that part of the current shift isn't being driven by marketing honchos and a trend that will itself change like the eating habit changes you've pointed out with milk is a bit too hopeful for me.
 
It is fashionable/on trend though currently isn't it and much of that increase in availability has been through satan's cock sucking marketing (Thanks Bill) company's pumping the vegan pound for every beat of it's meat free heart if the truth be known.

Anyway like I say, each to their own and I applaud your stance on this but to think that part of the current shift isn't being driven by marketing honchos and a trend that will itself change like the eating habit changes you've pointed out with milk is a bit too hopeful for me.

Nail on head. Marketing wankers are paid to create trends, and trends like this, that provide massive profits for companies, are the golden goose, and that goose will be royally milked. I don't think it's going to disappear any time soon, nor would I want it to, as eating less meat can only be a good thing, but it's certainly going to plateau, and maybe subside, when people finally stop trying to convince themselves that cardboard doesn't taste better than most of the meat alternatives, and donkey piss doesn't taste better than most of the milk alternatives.
 
It is fashionable/on trend though currently isn't it and much of that increase in availability has been through satan's cock sucking marketing (Thanks Bill) company's pumping the vegan pound for every beat of it's meat free heart if the truth be known. A lot of those company's are just jumping on the bandwagon whist continuing to trough out the same goods that you see as part of the problem. Gregg's haven't stopped sticking sausage in the bake bean and cheese slice. (thank god), M&S are still selling corned beef to old ladies at 3 times the price of Aldi alongside their vegan peasnap and balsamic vinegar windfall oakleaf crisps. Let's not forget the rainbow wrap either :facepalm:

Yes there is a rise in people who are making changes to their eating habits based upon their conscience relating to climate change but they are a percentage of that on-trend shift in consumer habits not the entirety of it. Most of the people I know who use milk alternatives are doing it for fad diet purposes and all but one are meat eaters.

If people want to think that by going vegan they're part of a global movement then that's great, I think it's probably a good vehicle for change for some folk if they think they're doing it as a social concience movement, and I agree there are things we need to do about food production and the state of the planet but the rise in veganism isn't solely driven by people making those choices.

It's on trend and I would like to know how many of them are still vegans in 5, 10, 15 years time? This happened when we were teens didn't it with Mozzatarianism? Every other kid in school was a vegi for a term when I was in 5th year. All the edgy girls were eating nut roast and hedgehog crisps.

Anyway like I say, each to their own and I applaud your stance on this but to think that part of the current shift isn't being driven by marketing honchos and a trend that will itself change like the eating habit changes you've pointed out with milk is a bit too hopeful for me.
Soya milk - and other non dairy milks - haven't happened overnight. People have been drinking the stuff for years on end, and as the tastes have improved more people are switching - or supplementing - their diets. Same with vegan food.

A few years ago, no one was particularly interested in catering to vegans, but supermarkets and restaurants were forced to start offering different foods because of overwhelming consumer pressure - and better information (the much quoted notion that you needed meat to be a top athlete has now been well and truly debunked).

And it may suit your personal politics to dismiss it all as some kind of trendy fad, but you're wrong. There's a new generation who know how much damage the meat and dairy industry is causing to the environment and they're deciding to stop supporting it, either by giving up meat or cutting back.

Instead of dismissing them as hapless victims of faddishness, you should be applauding them.
 
Nail on head. Marketing wankers are paid to create trends, and trends like this, that provide massive profits for companies, are the golden goose, and that goose will be royally milked. I don't think it's going to disappear any time soon, nor would I want it to, as eating less meat can only be a good thing, but it's certainly going to plateau, and maybe subside, when people finally stop trying to convince themselves that cardboard doesn't taste better than most of the meat alternatives, and donkey piss doesn't taste better than most of the milk alternatives.
You really haven't got a clue what you're talking about. The rise in veganism isn't the result of some top marketing agency dreaming up a killer campaign that involves supermarkets suddenly having to stock new foods.

More people are turning veggie/vegan for a variety of reasons most of which I assume are beyond your simplistic reasoning.

Here. Educate yourself.

Chart showing survey results on why vegetarians and non-meat eaters cut down, or intend to cut down, on meat.


 
I like this quote:

Today, the concept of producing a drink directly from oats instead of first feeding oats to a cow and letting the cow process them into milk is an option but back when we started in the 1990s most people thought we were totally crazy.

:D
 
drinking equally tasty substitutes
See, this is where I fail with dairy.

I know the industry is shit. I'd love to be able to step away. But I drink a lot of milk. I love it. An ice cold glass from the fridge is one of the most refreshing things I know. And as for cheese...

I've tried as many of the alternatives as I can find. They are all - without exception so far - appalling.

Some of the newer meat substitutes out there now aren't half bad. The prospect of going meat free is a hell of a lot easier nowadays than it once was. Maybe one day we'll get there with dairy too, I really hope so. But right now? Nope.
 
You really haven't got a clue what you're talking about. The rise in veganism isn't the result of some top marketing agency dreaming up a killer campaign that involves supermarkets suddenly having to stock new foods.

More people are turning veggie/vegan for a variety of reasons most of which I assume are beyond your simplistic reasoning.

Here. Educate yourself.

Chart showing survey results on why vegetarians and non-meat eaters cut down, or intend to cut down, on meat.


Are you actually incapable of participating in a debate, without insulting those who disagree with you? It seems that every time someone produces facts to debunk your nonsense, you either insult them, ban them or both.
Grow up.
 
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