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Milk's impact on the planet dairy, soya, rice, oat and almond compared

We won't be able to use the woodland for anything - except storing carbon and helping prevent civilisational collapse... I really don't see that it matters whether or not we are self-sufficient, what matters is that food is grown in the best locations to do so and that (absolutely vital) trees are grown in the best places for that. Food miles are a total red herring in all this. The local food movement has been absolutely dire for understanding of the environmental impact of our diet.

But, like I've said, you can store carbon in pasture and produce food from it.
It matters, because what we are effectively doing by producing less is expecting the developing world to do our farming for us, so we can feel smug about offsetting carbon.

Food miles are not at all a red herring, especially when it comes to airfreighted fresh produce.

Look at the impact of transport on the environment in terms of emissions. It's far greater than farming.
 
And to state the bleeding obvious, cows, pigs, sheep etc are bred for food and held in disgusting conditions their whole life to satisfy demand for meat. As this goes down less will need to be bred, artificially inseminated and forced to produce more and more offspring
Look at those poor sheep in their disgusting conditions....:mad:
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Do you REALLY want to get into a discussion about the treatment of the vast majority of animals in the cheap meat trade?

My point, on this entire thread has been about the benefits of pasture based farming. Nowhere have I defended feedlot beef or indoor pigs, or broilers.

The vast majority of sheep in the UK spend the vast majority of their time like the ones in the photos.
The upland ones (photo 1), according to the farmer (who's land I was camping on) are gathered 4 times a year (I believe this is typical of upland systems), and it involves him and 5 of his neighbours to get them down. They will be brought off the hill to lamb in-bye where they can be monitored, for shearing, weaning and prior to tupping.

The others lived on that particular down and the ewes never left it (although they were gathered more often).
 
My point, on this entire thread has been about the benefits of pasture based farming. Nowhere have I defended feedlot beef or indoor pigs, or broilers.

The vast majority of sheep in the UK spend the vast majority of their time like the ones in the photos.
The upland ones (photo 1), according to the farmer (who's land I was camping on) are gathered 4 times a year (I believe this is typical of upland systems).

The others lived on that particular down and the ewes never left it (although they were gathered more often).
They surely should be thanking the farmer for their idyllic life of luxury, eh?

The suffering of farmed sheep
People see sheep in the driving rain and snow or in scorching heat and think it’s all perfectly natural.

But wild animals do not stand about in fields in fierce weather as sheep are forced to do; they take cover but there is invariably no shelter for sheep. Nor can they rely upon enough feed, or even sufficient drinking water.

In addition, ewes are forced into producing more lambs at the ‘wrong’ time of year. Every year some four million newborn lambs – about one in five of the total – die within a few days of birth, mostly from disease, exposure or malnutrition. Contrary to what some farmers say (in an attempt to justify the barbarity of fox hunting), fox predation is not responsible for the loss of so many lambs. Official figures show that foxes take less than one per cent and those they do take are likely to be already ailing. The high losses are due to neglect by farmers, working in an industry that exploits animals at every stage.

As a result of the burdens put on sheep, they suffer endemic lameness, miscarriage, infestation and infection. Each year, around one in 20 adult sheep die of cold, starvation, sickness, pregnancy complications or injury before they can be slaughtered. Often, they will die before a farmer even realises anything is wrong. Lambs who do survive are usually killed for food at around four months old.
More pregnancies and multiple births
Under natural conditions sheep will give birth every spring after a five month pregnancy. Ewes are physiologically designed to produce a single lamb with each gestation (twins would naturally be relatively rare). But genetic selection and intensive feeding have created a situation whereby twins and even triplets are not just commonplace but the norm, with around 85 per cent of sheep pregnancies now resulting in multiple lambs.

Whilst most lambs are born in the spring, many farmers are choosing to lamb during the winter months to ensure their animals are big enough to slaughter for the lucrative ‘spring lamb’ market around Easter. They use invasive techniques, such as drugs and hormone implants, to manipulate the sheep breeding cycle in pursuit of higher profits. Being born in winter obviously puts lambs at greater risk of exposure, but earlier pregnancies also mean unborn lambs may be at greater risk from insect-borne diseases during the summer, such as Schmallenberg virus, which can cause deformities and miscarriages.
Live exports
Around 390,000 sheep are exported live each year from the UK, constituting the vast majority of our farmed animal live exports. As has been well documented, sheep endure horrific suffering on long journeys from UK ports to continental destinations. In September 2012 live exports were temporarily suspended from the Port of Ramsgate following the deaths of more than 40 sheep in an incident there.
https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-issues/our-campaigns/animal-farming/suffering-farmed-sheep/
 
More tales of their wonderful life:

Footage that appears to show sheep being kicked, beaten and abused during wool-shearing on English and Scottish farms has been released by animal rights activists.

Peta Asia carried out an undercover investigation over the summer in the British sheep shearing industry. The 18 minutes of footage released yesterday is part of a wider investigation, in which Peta documented alleged abuse on 25 farms in Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire, Suffolk, Essex, and Northumberland counties. In Scotland they have collected evidence from 24 farms in West Lothian, Fife, the Borders, Dumfries and Galloway, East Lothian, Midlothian and South Lanarkshire.

The new footage appears to show workers swearing at the animals while kicking them in the face and beating their heads against the ground. In one scene, a worker repeatedly slams a sheep’s head against the floor while shouting abuse. In some of the footage, the shearers, none of whom are identified, beat the animals with metal shearing clippers and throw them down from their shearing platforms on to the ground. In other sections, when the sheep try to move during the shearing process, workers appear to push their boots heavily down on the animals’ heads and necks, kicking and slapping them in the face.
Secret videos reveal workers beating sheep on English and Scottish farms
 
Hows it desperate?

Two sheep systems there - upland (Snowdonia) and Lowland (Hampshire Downland)
Those animals are in nothing approaching disgusting conditions, and they are typical of most sheep production in the UK.
It's desperate as you're scrabbling around the bottom of the barrel, moving the goalposts and looking for anything however small to pick holes and make yourself feel better about your choices while deriding others
 
It's a natural enough existence for a sheep. Both sets of sheep in the photos have plenty of cover they can get in when it rains. Wild type sheep live in mountain conditions not dissimilar to the ones in Snowdonia, so that is where they are adapted to live.
It's a legal requirement to provide drinking water. Sheep do appear not to really drink unless they are lactating though.

The vast majority of sheep are sired via natural service. Sponging is pretty expensive, and still requires natural service. AI hasn't really made it's way into sheep production in a big way.
Early lambing flocks still take the ram when he is put in to lamb in January. Ewes wont stand to allow him to mount if they aren't ovulating.

Like it or not, most live imports/exports are breeding animals. It's much cheaper to export carcases than live animals.

I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that lot has never been near a sheep farm.

They surely should be thanking the farmer for their idyllic life of luxury, eh?

https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-issues/our-campaigns/animal-farming/suffering-farmed-sheep/
 
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It's desperate as you're scrabbling around the bottom of the barrel, moving the goalposts and looking for anything however small to pick holes and make yourself feel better about your choices while deriding others

I'm not though, am I? I've been pretty consistent this whole thread, and where necessary have backed my assertions up with peer-reviewed evidence.

The goalposts keep being moved, but not by me.
 
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Show a sheep farmer, pretty much any sheep farmer that video and see how they react.
Its pretty disingenuous to suggest that kind of thing is at all commonplace.
Shearers have been kicked off farms and told never to return for much, much less than that. Even if you want to believe that most farmers are callous - the ewes are their stock, they rely on them to make their money. Treating them like that makes no financial sense.
I can't say I've ever seen anything like it, and it's not like I don't know any sheep farmers/haven't spent any time in shearing sheds.

Edited to add - if youd like a rough gauge of how farmers feel about that sort of thing, there are plenty of bulletin boards for farmers, and you can bet things like that will have been discussed when they were current.
 
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You're fighting a losing battle. You may as well argue with a bucket of hyperbole.

It's kinda off topic too - I was discussing the environmental impacts of farming.

I couldn't care in the slightest if people don't want to eat meat, I can totally understand not wanting to be directly responsible for a death. I understand more than most that meat involves killing.
I get far more miffed with the meat eaters who don't give the whole thing a second thought, who wouldn't buy a dead animal that in any way looks like a dead animal etc etc

That said, I will argue with information that I feel is incorrect.
 
Show a sheep farmer, pretty much any sheep farmer that video and see how they react.
Its pretty disingenuous to suggest that kind of thing is at all commonplace.
Shearers have been kicked off farms and told never to return for much, much less than that. Even if you want to believe that most farmers are callous - the ewes are their stock, they rely on them to make their money. Treating them like that makes no financial sense.
I can't say I've ever seen anything like it, and it's not like I don't know any sheep farmers/haven't spent any time in shearing sheds.

Edited to add - if youd like a rough gauge of how farmers feel about that sort of thing, there are plenty of bulletin boards for farmers, and you can bet things like that will have been discussed when they were current.
Yet this was only uncovered by secret filming. Why didn't the farmer do something? And it wasn't just one farm:
...Peta documented alleged abuse on 25 farms in Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire, Suffolk, Essex, and Northumberland counties. In Scotland they have collected evidence from 24 farms in West Lothian, Fife, the Borders, Dumfries and Galloway, East Lothian, Midlothian and South Lanarkshire.
 
Yet this was only uncovered by secret filming. Why didn't the farmer do something? And it wasn't just one farm:

I couldn't see the farmer in any of the footage, only the shearing gang. Perhaps he trusted them to do their job? I remember that video coming out, and naively maybe, wouldnt expect that behaviour, never having seen anything like it. Somebody has to keep the sheep coming at shearing, it may well that the farmer was at the back of the pen. I never worked with a flock big enough that needed three shearers at once - the biggest flock I worked with was just under a thousand and were sheared in batches with one shearer, the farmer keeping the sheep coming and someone else rolling fleeces (usually a relative of the farmer).
Although they allege it happened on several farms (and shearing gangs do travel about), I only saw 2 or 3 in the footage.

Sadly, PETA lie so frequently, I believe nothing they say. Don't you remember their campaign that implied that farmers skinned sheep alive at shearing and this is where wool came from?
 
I couldn't see the farmer in any of the footage, only the shearing gang. Perhaps he trusted them to do their job? I remember that video coming out, and naively maybe, wouldnt expect that behaviour, never having seen anything like it. Somebody has to keep the sheep coming at shearing, it may well that the farmer was at the back of the pen. I never worked with a flock big enough that needed three shearers at once - the biggest flock I worked with was just under a thousand and were sheared in batches with one shearer, the farmer keeping the sheep coming and someone else rolling fleeces (usually a relative of the farmer).
Although they allege it happened on several farms (and shearing gangs do travel about), I only saw 2 or 3 in the footage.

Sadly, PETA lie so frequently, I believe nothing they say. Don't you remember their campaign that implied that farmers skinned sheep alive at shearing and this is where wool came from?
So you have evidence that the video is faked? Please produce it.
Strange how the farms didn't sue them if it was all faked, mind.
 
So you have evidence that the video is faked? Please produce it.
Strange how the farms didn't sue them if it was all faked, mind.

How could the farmer sue? There was no allegation of mistreatment by a farmer, only by the shearing gangs (who are contractors) As far as I'm aware the farms weren't made public.

Where did I say the video was faked? I said that I watched it and only saw three farms max. I also said that shearing gangs visit numerous farms.

You cannot deny, however, that PETA routinely lie, from the wool campaign, to claiming that they don't euthanase dogs in their shelters.
I don't trust them for the same reason I don't trust the Daily Mail - both have been found to lie on numerous occasions.
 
How could the farmer sue? There was no allegation of mistreatment by a farmer, only by the shearing gangs (who are contractors) As far as I'm aware the farms weren't made public.

Where did I say the video was faked? I said that I watched it and only saw three farms max. I also said that shearing gangs visit numerous farms.

You cannot deny, however, that PETA routinely lie, from the wool campaign, to claiming that they don't euthanase dogs in their shelters.
I don't trust them for the same reason I don't trust the Daily Mail - both have been found to lie on numerous occasions.
Oh right. So you have absolutely no evidence at all that the video was faked - so why are suggesting that it might have been?
 
Oh right. So you have absolutely no evidence at all that the video was faked - so why are suggesting that it might have been?

I didn't.

What I said was (once again): taking the video at face value (ie assuming it isnt faked) I saw three farms max. However, I mitigated this by acknowledging that shearing gangs visit numerous farms.

However, I do not trust PETA because they are not credible, they routinely lie, and have been found out doing so. I included another example of the press that has been known to routinely lie (the Daily Mail) to illustrate my point.

Do you believe everything you read in the Mail?
 
Couple of points:

We wont be able to grow protein rich veggies on pasture land, it's not suitable for cropping, but it often grows grass very well. Good cropping land is worth substantially more money and often provides a better return than pasture.
Why can't you? It's rich fertile land. I've seen several places where a dairy farmer has sold a small field and it's been used as allotments and they grow all sorts of different fruit and veg and it grows well.
 
So you are expecting everyone to turn vegan overnight? I'm not. How would you even go about it? Make animal products illegal? How would you deal with the inevitable civil unrest?
I'm not but the way Monbiot goes on it sounds like that what he want's. :eek:
 
And to state the bleeding obvious, cows, pigs, sheep etc are bred for food and held in disgusting conditions their whole life
As someone who is supposed to be Welsh haven't you seem sheep roaming about over the Welsh hillside? I'd hardly call that disgusting. Similarly for cows. Pigs may be a different matter.

And as for artificial insemination most sheep and cows mate naturally. In sheep dye is sprayed on the underside of the ram and when it mates with a ewe some of the dye is transferred to the back of the ewe so the farmer knows which ewes have been serviced.

This veggie / vegan propaganda doesn't help your cause it puts people off.
 
Why can't you? It's rich fertile land. I've seen several places where a dairy farmer has sold a small field and it's been used as allotments and they grow all sorts of different fruit and veg and it grows well.

Drainage, its often too wet or too stony, soil might be too thin to grow crops for long without a lot of fertiliser. Dairy ground is usually the best pasture, so beef or sheep permanent pasture is usually rougher than that (except where cows/sheep are used in rotation on arable land) It's one thing to grow veg on a small scale, quite another to cultivate land on a large scale.
 
New article puts oat milk and soya milk as the most environmentally sound, and both miles and miles ahead of dairy milk. That's handy because oat is by far the best milk out there and I like soya milk too.


Soy: back in favor
Soy milk was the go-to alternative long before almond.

According to the Oxford study, soy milk is the joint winner on the sustainability scale. Plus, soy is the only plant milk that comes close to offering a protein content comparable to dairy. It was the go-to alternative long before almond milk came into vogue – but then soy fell out of favor.

“Soy has a relatively high concentration of certain hormones that are similar to human hormones and people got freaked out about that,” says Emery. “But the reality is you would have to consume an impossibly large amount of soy milk and tofu for that to ever be a problem.” Recent studies have instead found that a moderate amount of soy is healthy, especially for women.

The primary environmental drawback to soy milk is that soybeans are grown in massive quantities around the world to feed livestock for meat and dairy production. Large swaths of rainforest in the Amazon have been burned to make way for soy farms. The work-around for this is to simply do a little research and read the carton to find soy milk that is made from organic soybeans grown in the US or Canada.

Oat: a humble hero
Oat milk ‘performs very well on all sustainability metrics’.

Meet the winner: the unassuming oat.

“I’m excited about the surge in oat milk popularity,” says Liz Specht, associate director of science and technology for the Good Food Institute, a not-for-profit that promotes plant-based diets. “Oat milk performs very well on all sustainability metrics.” Also: “I highly doubt there will be unintended environmental consequences that might emerge when the scale of oat milk use gets larger.”

According to Bloomberg Business, retail sales of oat milk in the US have soared from $4.4m in 2017 to $29m in 2019, surpassing almond milk as the fastest-growing dairy alternative. But unlike almonds, there are already plenty of oats to go around. “Right now, 50 to 90% of global oat production goes into animal feed,” says Specht, “so there’s a huge existing acreage that we can safely steal share from without moving the needle at all on total production.”

Oats are grown in cooler climates such as the northern US and Canada, and are therefore not associated with deforestation in developing countries. The only drawback with this trendy and guilt-free option is that most oats come from mass-produced, monoculture operations where they are sprayed with the Roundup pesticide right before harvest. A study by the Environmental Working Group found glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup and a possible carcinogen, in all the foods it tested containing conventionally grown oats and even in one-third of products made with organic oats. However, the popular Oatly brand oat milk company maintains its oats are certified glyphosate free.

 
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