Milk's impact on the planet dairy, soya, rice, oat and almond compared

[Saul Goodman]

The other point of course is that if everyone became vegan, the figures would change dramatically. At present a tiny vegan minority is catered for without problems, but everyone moving to a plant based diet would soon engender the problems caused by a meat and fish based diet. As it is, rice paddies generate a lot of methane.

Some people are so blinkered that they can't see the impact a vegan population would have on the planet. Things would go south short shrift, as the lands became poisoned with fertilisers, and insecticides and herbicides killed off all the bees and other insects, and poisoned the water supplies. They also seem to (incorrectly) believe that all land is arable Only around 1/4 of all the agricultural land on the planet is arable. The rest is only fit for raising animals. Fortunately, those animals produce a lot of fertiliser for plants. That won't be the case in a vegan world. We'd be relying solely on synthetic fertilisers to grow crops, as crop rotation and fallow land aren't conducive of good profits, and there probably isn't enough arable land on the planet to allow for it. Unfortunately, synthetic fertilisers rely on fossil fuel. Around 50% of the energy used in agriculture is used in the production of nitrogen for fertiliser, which results in well over 500 Million tons of CO2 pumped into the atmosphere each year, and that's just to make nitrogen. There's only one way that figure is going if we ditch the cows and sheep, but it's pointless trying to point any of these things out to vegangelists.

 

[Poot]

Some people are so blinkered that they can't see the impact a vegan population would have on the planet. Things would go south short shrift, as the lands became poisoned with fertilisers, and insecticides and herbicides killed off all the bees and other insects, and poisoned the water supplies. They also seem to (incorrectly) believe that all land is arable Only around 1/4 of all the agricultural land on the planet is arable. The rest is only fit for raising animals. Fortunately, those animals produce a lot of fertiliser for plants. That won't be the case in a vegan world. We'd be relying solely on synthetic fertilisers to grow crops, as crop rotation and fallow land aren't conducive of good profits, and there probably isn't enough arable land on the planet to allow for it. Unfortunately, synthetic fertilisers rely on fossil fuel. Around 50% of the energy used in agriculture is used in the production of nitrogen for fertiliser, which results in well over 500 Million tons of CO2 pumped into the atmosphere each year, and that's just to make nitrogen. There's only one way that figure is going if we ditch the cows and sheep, but it's pointless trying to point any of these things out to vegangelists.

And exactly who are these people that you are inventing to argue at?

 

[Saul Goodman]

And exactly who are these people that you are inventing to argue at?

Vegangelists. But they invented themselves.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Vegans are holding sit-ins at Starbucks because dairy-free drinks cost more.

Vegans are holding sit-ins at Starbucks because dairy-free drinks cost more

Vegans activists are holding sit-ins at Starbucks cafes, questioning why non-dairy milk costs more than dairy, arguing it's an unfair "vegan tax."

www.insider.com

Expensive stuff in 'costs more' shocker!

 

[editor]

Vegans are holding sit-ins at Starbucks because dairy-free drinks cost more.

Vegans are holding sit-ins at Starbucks because dairy-free drinks cost more

Vegans activists are holding sit-ins at Starbucks cafes, questioning why non-dairy milk costs more than dairy, arguing it's an unfair "vegan tax."

www.insider.com

Expensive stuff in 'costs more' shocker!

And quite right too. Loads of rival coffee chains don't charge more and Starbucks should be doing their bit to bring about positive change by encouraging people to drink less dairy milk.

Talking of which, here's something for you to go into denial about:

You want to reduce the carbon footprint of your food? Focus on what you eat, not whether your food is local

“Eat local” is a common recommendation to reduce the carbon footprint of your diet. How does the impact of what you eat compare to where it's come from?

ourworldindata.org

As far as I can see there's no vegan authors in there, but there's loads of links to studies you can look up.

 

[Saul Goodman]

And quite right too. Loads of rival coffee chains don't charge more and Starbucks should be doing their bit to bring about positive change by encouraging people to drink less dairy milk.

Talking of which, here's something for you to go into denial about:

View attachment 198341

You want to reduce the carbon footprint of your food? Focus on what you eat, not whether your food is local

“Eat local” is a common recommendation to reduce the carbon footprint of your diet. How does the impact of what you eat compare to where it's come from?

ourworldindata.org

As far as I can see there's no vegan authors in there, but there's loads of links to studies you can look up.

Re: your 1st point
I've never denied that the beef and dairy industry is a massive contributor to greenhouse gases. Why would I start now?

Your second point/link asks the question:

You want to reduce the carbon footprint of your food?

I don't. I'm quite content with my carbon footprint, thank you.

 

[WouldBe]

Talking of which, here's something for you to go into denial about:

Nice to see rice is more polluting than dairy milk and as the rice needs to be processed further to produce rice milk then that must be even more polluting than dairy milk.

A lot of rice is still grown using oxen / water buffalo to plough the paddy fields and a lot of farmers rear fish in the paddies as well. Better stop eating rice then.

 

[editor]

Nice to see rice is more polluting than dairy milk and as the rice needs to be processed further to produce rice milk then that must be even more polluting than dairy milk.

A lot of rice is still grown using oxen / water buffalo to plough the paddy fields and a lot of farmers rear fish in the paddies as well. Better stop eating rice then.

I'm happy to adjust my diet as much as I can to minimise my environmental impact. Not sure what your point is here, or why it's 'nice' to see one thing above the other.

 

[CNT36]

And quite right too. Loads of rival coffee chains don't charge more and Starbucks should be doing their bit to bring about positive change by encouraging people to drink less dairy milk.

Talking of which, here's something for you to go into denial about:

View attachment 198341

You want to reduce the carbon footprint of your food? Focus on what you eat, not whether your food is local

“Eat local” is a common recommendation to reduce the carbon footprint of your diet. How does the impact of what you eat compare to where it's come from?

ourworldindata.org

As far as I can see there's no vegan authors in there, but there's loads of links to studies you can look up.

Appears useful. Thanks.

 

[WouldBe]

I'm happy to adjust my diet as much as I can to minimise my environmental impact. Not sure what your point is here, or why it's 'nice' to see one thing above the other.

You're the one advocating plant based 'milk' is better for the environment including rice milk then post evidence that shows rice is worse for the environment than real milk.

 

[editor]

You're the one advocating plant based 'milk' is better for the environment including rice milk then post evidence that shows rice is worse for the environment than real milk.

FYI, rice milk actually has a much lower impact than dairy, not that I've been advocating rice milk, which I don't think I've ever tried. I prefer oat and soya which are miles better for the environment that dairy.

As we can see, all of the non-dairy kinds of milks are much better for the environment than cow’s milk. They use less land, less water and generate lower amounts of greenhouse gases. This is because cows (and there are a lots of them) require a hell of a lot of land space and water. Then, there is the fact that cows are the major producers of methane, which is more harmful to the environment than carbon dioxide.

Which milk has the smallest impact on the planet?

I love latte macchiato. But I also worry about climate change.

blog.datawrapper.de

 

[Saul Goodman]

FYI, rice milk actually has a much lower impact than dairy, not that I've been advocating rice milk, which I don't think I've ever tried. I prefer oat and soya which are miles better for the environment that dairy.

View attachment 198445

Which milk has the smallest impact on the planet?

I love latte macchiato. But I also worry about climate change.

blog.datawrapper.de

That graph only shows CO2. The graph further up shows all greenhouse gases, including methane. Rice seems to be pretty bad on the methane front.

 

[editor]

That graph only shows CO2. The graph further up shows all greenhouse gases, including methane. Rice seems to be pretty bad on the methane front.

Good job no one is advocating drinking rice milk here - but even if they were, it's still miles better for the environment than dairy milk.

Environmental impact of one glass (200ml) of different milks:

Dairy
Emissions (kg) = 0.63
Land use (square metre) = 1.79
Water (litre) = 125.6

Rice
Emissions (kg) = 0.24
Land use (square metre) = 0.07
Water (litre) = 54

Which vegan milk is best for the environment?

www.sciencefocus.com

 

[Saul Goodman]

Good job no one is advocating drinking rice milk here - but even if they were, it's still miles better for the environment than dairy milk.

Environmental impact of one glass (200ml) of different milks:

Dairy
Emissions (kg) = 0.63
Land use (square metre) = 1.79
Water (litre) = 125.6

Rice
Emissions (kg) = 0.24
Land use (square metre) = 0.07
Water (litre) = 54

Which vegan milk is best for the environment?

www.sciencefocus.com

Again, which GHGs is that graph showing?
More importantly, all of these graphs seem to be based on GHG per amount of product. Which is misleading at best. Nutrient density relative to GHG emissions is the only true measure, but nobody seems to be mentioning it. Although I did find this, which seems to suggest that cow's milk has a higher nutrient to GHG ratio than any of the milk alternatives.

Nutrient density of beverages in relation to climate impact

The food chain contributes to a substantial part of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions and growing evidence points to the urgent need to reduce GHGs emissions worldwide. Among suggestions were proposals to alter food consumption patterns by replacing animal ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But I am trying to read it on my phone without my glasses, so I'll have a look at it tomorrow and see if it rings true.

 

[CNT36]

Again, which GHGs is that graph showing?
More importantly, all of these graphs seem to be based on GHG per amount of product. Which is misleading at best. Nutrient density relative to GHG emissions is the only true measure, but nobody seems to be mentioning it. Although I did find this, which seems to suggest that cow's milk has a higher nutrient to GHG ratio than any of the milk alternatives.

Nutrient density of beverages in relation to climate impact

The food chain contributes to a substantial part of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions and growing evidence points to the urgent need to reduce GHGs emissions worldwide. Among suggestions were proposals to alter food consumption patterns by replacing animal ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But I am trying to read it on my phone without my glasses, so I'll have a look at it tomorrow and see if it rings true.

When I first saw the graph in the OP I did do a quick mental calculation based on protein another measure that has been used and one with some relevance to me. My poison Soya milk is still better even if that protein is more difficult for the body to use as some have claimed. Obviously that is not all nutrition as that would be difficult to compare across the board. If one product has comparatively less of one nutrient but more of another which product is better? I think it is also worth noting that a lot of people simply use milk to wet their corn flakes or change the colour of a hot drink. It is not a major part of their diet and not something they consciously use for nutrition.

There are also factors other than emissions and potency of GHGs to consider.

FYI, rice milk actually has a much lower impact than dairy, not that I've been advocating rice milk, which I don't think I've ever tried. I prefer oat and soya which are miles better for the environment that dairy.

View attachment 198445

Which milk has the smallest impact on the planet?

I love latte macchiato. But I also worry about climate change.

blog.datawrapper.de

The graph you posted Wednesday does appear to show rice (not yet rice milk) as having a higher impact than dairy milk. There are less harmful ways of producing rice I believe with less methane released an important factor. Iirc you posted a good piece (based on some kind of meta-study) that included discussion that used the tenth and ninetieth percentile values to show how farms in even the same type of agriculture can have massively different environmental impacts. Unless rice milk is produced using the very best sources of rice then going by the above it's impact is likely worse than that of dairy milk.

 

[Saul Goodman]

When I first saw the graph in the OP I did do a quick mental calculation based on protein another measure that has been used and one with some relevance to me. My poison Soya milk is still better even if that protein is more difficult for the body to use as some have claimed. Obviously that is not all nutrition as that would be difficult to compare across the board. If one product has comparatively less of one nutrient but more of another which product is better? I think it is also worth noting that a lot of people simply use milk to wet their corn flakes or change the colour of a hot drink. It is not a major part of their diet and not something they consciously use for nutrition.

There are also factors other than emissions and potency of GHGs to consider.


The graph you posted Wednesday does appear to show rice (not yet rice milk) as having a higher impact than dairy milk. There are less harmful ways of producing rice I believe with less methane released an important factor. Iirc you posted a good piece (based on some kind of meta-study) that included discussion that used the tenth and ninetieth percentile values to show how farms in even the same type of agriculture can have massively different environmental impacts. Unless rice milk is produced using the very best sources of rice then going by the above it's impact is likely worse than that of dairy milk.

I think the article I linked to was basing its findings on recommended intake of nutrients (RDA) and the GHGs created producing those nutrients.
RDA is surely a better measure than "Here's one glass of alternative milk vs one glass of cow's milk". Oh look how bad cow's milk is per glass than this alternative milk.
you are right, though. Not everyone uses milk purely for its nutritional value, but nutrients gained from milk are nutrients that don't need to be sourced elsewhere.

 

[Marty1]

Vegans are holding sit-ins at Starbucks because dairy-free drinks cost more.

Vegans are holding sit-ins at Starbucks because dairy-free drinks cost more

Vegans activists are holding sit-ins at Starbucks cafes, questioning why non-dairy milk costs more than dairy, arguing it's an unfair "vegan tax."

www.insider.com

Expensive stuff in 'costs more' shocker!

Starbucks has become the latest vegan battleground.

For gods sake

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Oat milk is a sound choice. I struggle to see how soya and almonds, neither of which are produced anywhere near the UK is more environmentaly friendly then milk from cows that are grass fed in this country.

Soya is pretty well linked to deformation in the Amazon, although grantened a lot goes for livestock fees in countries like the US.

 

[CNT36]

Oat milk is a sound choice. I struggle to see how soya and almonds, neither of which are produced anywhere near the UK is more environmentaly friendly then milk from cows that are grass fed in this country.

Soya is pretty well linked to deformation in the Amazon, although grantened a lot goes for livestock fees in countries like the US.

See post 1,325.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

See post 1,325.

Global averages. Which seems a little funny to take stats like that, when eating locally makes such a difference.

 

[CNT36]

Global averages. Which seems a little funny to take stats like that, when eating locally makes such a difference.

Did you read the article or just look at the graph?

 

[editor]

. Unless rice milk is produced using the very best sources of rice then going by the above it's impact is likely worse than that of dairy milk.

I'm not entirely convinced. It uses far less water than dairy milk and the product is 89% water. Those figures are for 100% rice.

 

[editor]

Oat milk is a sound choice. I struggle to see how soya and almonds, neither of which are produced anywhere near the UK is more environmentaly friendly then milk from cows that are grass fed in this country.

Soya is pretty well linked to deformation in the Amazon, although grantened a lot goes for livestock fees in countries like the US.

Almonds are an awful idea for a dairy alternative IMO, but dairy production uses up a truly immense amount of resources - and of course, a large amount of imported soya goes into cattle feed.

 

[Pickman's model]

tbh no one has yet made a compelling case for anyone to need to use milk or some ersatz plant based milk.

 

[Pickman's model]

And quite right too. Loads of rival coffee chains don't charge more and Starbucks should be doing their bit to bring about positive change by encouraging people to drink less dairy milk.

Talking of which, here's something for you to go into denial about:

View attachment 198341

You want to reduce the carbon footprint of your food? Focus on what you eat, not whether your food is local

“Eat local” is a common recommendation to reduce the carbon footprint of your diet. How does the impact of what you eat compare to where it's come from?

ourworldindata.org

As far as I can see there's no vegan authors in there, but there's loads of links to studies you can look up.

one thing i'd highlight on that chart is palm oil, the cultivation of which leads to deforestation in indonesia and is endangering orang utans. i hope you're no longer buying products which contain it.

The Effects of Palm Oil – Orangutan Foundation International

orangutan.org

 

[editor]

one thing i'd highlight on that chart is palm oil, the cultivation of which leads to deforestation in indonesia and is endangering orang utans: or rather the cultivators kill orang utans. i hope you're no longer buying products which contain it.

The Effects of Palm Oil – Orangutan Foundation International

orangutan.org

I'm fully aware of the impact of palm oil, and I'm doing my best to reduce it or use products sourced from sustainable supplies. How about you?

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm fully aware of the impact of palm oil, and I'm doing my best to reduce it or use products sourced from sustainable supplies. How about you?

i'd have thought that would be obvious from my post, but if you didn't receive the impression i am against its impact, i am against its impact and refuse to buy things which contain it.

 

[Saul Goodman]

i'd have thought that would be obvious from my post, but if you didn't receive the impression i am against its impact, i am against its impact and refuse to buy things which contain it.

That's some undertaking. Palm oil is in so many foods it's all but impossible to avoid. But fair play for making the effort.

Many products that use palm oil aren't clearly labeled. Palm oil and its derivatives can appear under many names, including:
Vegetable Oil, Vegetable Fat, Palm Kernel, Palm Kernel Oil, Palm Fruit Oil, Palmate, Palmitate, Palmolein, Glyceryl, Stearate, Stearic Acid, Elaeis Guineensis, Palmitic Acid, Palm Stearine, Palmitoyl Oxostearamide, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-3, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Lauryl Lactylate/Sulphate, Hyrated Palm Glycerides, Etyl Palmitate, Octyl Palmitate, Palmityl Alcohol.

Which Everyday Products Contain Palm Oil? | Pages | WWF

www.worldwildlife.org

Palm Oil Is in Everything, and It’s Hurting More Than the Orangutans

We cook with it. We bathe with it. We use it for mood lighting. Palm oil is an ingredient in processed foods, cosmetics, hygiene products, biofuels and candles; experts estimate it's found in 50 percent of the items on grocery store shelves.

From Virgin Forest to Grocery Store

The story of palm oil begins with clearing tropical rainforests and peatlands for plantations of oil palm trees, which thrive on warmth, sunlight, and copious rainfall. The trees — native to West Africa — produce clusters of orange-red fruit year-round, and can be harvested every 10–14 days when...

www.ecowatch.com

 

[editor]

Incredible growth in oat milk sales in the US:

US Oat Milk Sales Surge By 686% As Vegan Boom Continues

'This is not a bubble or a fad, but a real change in consumer behavior'

www.plantbasednews.org