Milk's impact on the planet dairy, soya, rice, oat and almond compared

[editor]

I'm happy to report that my dairy consumption is probably down something like 70% now, thanks to vegan alternatives. It's proving easier than I thought, to be honest.

 

[Riklet]

I just like milk a lot more than any of the alternatives, so it's quite hard for me.

Got some almonds so gonna try making my own almond milk soon though. Worst case scenario can turn it into a smoothie.

 

[Wookey]

I've managed to find one decent enough vegan cheese, but are there any decent butter substitutes? Most margarines are not IME. They just taste oily rather than buttery

I've given up on vegan marge. It's rank. Plastic tasting and so very fucking processed..

So, I've started to use hummous now in place of butter/marge for many things, buttering bread for sandwiches, a dollop on a baked potato, hummous on toast... There's not much that can't be improved and moistened with a lovely protein packed squidge of hummous. IMO.

 

[editor]

I've given up on vegan marge. It's rank. Plastic tasting and so very fucking processed..

So, I've started to use hummous now in place of butter/marge for many things, buttering bread for sandwiches, a dollop on a baked potato, hummous on toast... There's not much that can't be improved and moistened with a lovely protein packed squidge of hummous. IMO.

Did you not try this? It's bloody delicious.

 

[editor]

I just like milk a lot more than any of the alternatives, so it's quite hard for me.

Got some almonds so gonna try making my own almond milk soon though. Worst case scenario can turn it into a smoothie.

Have you tried the Oatly Semi? It tastes really milky to me and is marvellous in cereals. Much creamier than soya.

Oat Drink Semi | Oatly

 

[Wookey]

I just like milk a lot more than any of the alternatives, so it's quite hard for me.

Don't use dairy alternatives for their flavour! You'll forever be on a loser there!

Use dairy alternatives because not doing so is immoral, selfish and planet-destroying... And suddenly it will become much easier ime.

 

[Wookey]

Did you not try this? It's bloody delicious.

I haven't yet, but I know that brand... Do they do cheese too?

I'll give it a go if you say it's nice!

Not too bad on the ingredients either, I've seen far worse dairy margerines.

Ingredients: Organic Rapeseed Oil(39%), Water, Organic Coconut Oil(22%), Organic Shea Butter Oil (13%), Organic Almond (2%), Salt, Emulsifier (Sunflower Lecithin), Organic Carrot Juice, Organic Lemon Juice, Natural Flavouring.

 

[editor]

I haven't yet, but I know that brand... Do they do cheese too?

I'll give it a go if you say it's nice!

I've only tried their marg and it really is bloody lovely. Good enough for me to completely stop buying butter and buttery-mix spreads.

This is their current range: Naturli Produkter Archive – Naturli'

 

[Wookey]

I've only tried their marg and it really is bloody lovely. Good enough for me to completely stop buying butter and buttery-mix spreads.

This is their current range: Naturli Produkter Archive – Naturli'

They do loads! Will deffo check em out.

It was Violife I was thinking of, with their Flavour Block (cheese) which does for a very passable pizza, it does have that cheesy hit to it...

I still miss cheese cheese, tbh. But then if you'd asked me ten years ago what was the meaning of life, my answer would have been 'cheese'...

 

[editor]

Interesting piece here from a farmer's website

So, how does it taste? I purchased one Impossible Whopper and one traditional Whopper and compared side-by-side. To the naked eye, the burgers looked essentially identical. When cutting them each in half with a plastic knife, the beef burger seemed a bit more substantial and difficult to cut.

The two burgers did not taste identical, but the difference was small. The Impossible Whopper’s flavoring seemed a bit more external, as if it came more from something applied to the patty than from the patty itself. The traditional Whopper’s flavor seemed more intrinsic to the meat. That said, the difference was pretty minor. If I didn’t know what I was eating, I would have no idea it was not beef.

Impossible Foods’ CEO Pat Brown has explicitly stated that the company’s goal is to eliminate the need for animal agriculture by 2035. The company believes raising animals for food is inherently cruel, unhealthy for humans and bad for the environment.

If farmers and ranchers think we can mock and dismiss these products as a passing fad, we’re kidding ourselves. This is not just another disgusting tofu burger that only a dedicated hippie could convince himself to eat. It’s 95 percent of the way there, and the recipe is likely to only get better. Farmers and ranchers need to take notice and get ready to compete. I’ve tasted it with my own mouth, and this fake meat is ready for prime time.

Taste Test: This Fake Meat is the Real Deal

He gets a bit more worked up here

Now That We Have Your Attention: Now is the Time to Fight for Animal Agriculture

 

[Wookey]

I've given up on vegan marge. It's rank. Plastic tasting and so very fucking processed..

So, I've started to use hummous now in place of butter/marge for many things, buttering bread for sandwiches, a dollop on a baked potato, hummous on toast... There's not much that can't be improved and moistened with a lovely protein packed squidge of hummous. IMO.

Today's hummous application was on toast for the trad "beans on toast" combo, and yes! It fucking works!

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I haven't yet, but I know that brand... Do they do cheese too?

I'll give it a go if you say it's nice!

Not too bad on the ingredients either, I've seen far worse dairy margerines.

Ingredients: Organic Rapeseed Oil(39%), Water, Organic Coconut Oil(22%), Organic Shea Butter Oil (13%), Organic Almond (2%), Salt, Emulsifier (Sunflower Lecithin), Organic Carrot Juice, Organic Lemon Juice, Natural Flavouring.

editor is right - that brand is fantastic.

 

[Poot]

We've had a bit of a turnaround in our house. I rarely buy actual milk these days, unless I can get organic (I see a lot of farms and I know what I've seen). We now have unsweetened soya milk which we all love except my son (I can just about deal with the whinge, though).

Still struggling with vegan cheese and I still love dairy yoghurt (I've cut back though) but we were getting through massive amounts of milk before so I reckon we've probably cut our dairy intake by about 80%. And I've given up fish.

My parents in law seem to think that this is some kind of child abuse

 

[editor]

Naturli Organic Vegan Spreadable seems to have been withdrawn

 

[Calamity1971]

Naturli Organic Vegan Spreadable seems to have been withdrawn

This from mr steev on the vegetarian/vegan thread.

Ah, it's just the spreadable naturli. You can still get the blocks (which is what I buy). The blocks are still pretty easy to spread after being out of the fridge for a couple of minutes. Easier to spread than dairy butter

From Naturli yesterday: Hi guys. We have been notified that an organisation has made a test of the spreadable back in April, and that this test should have showed traces of a protein not further declared. We are handling the situation with great care and we are doing several analysis of the product. We are currently waiting on the test results and we'll tell you more as soon as we receive them

My Sainsbury's had no blocks left. So is in high demand.

 

[editor]

This from mr steev on the vegetarian/vegan thread.

My Sainsbury's had no blocks left. So is in high demand.

Ah thanks for that. I really don't want to go back to a dairy based spread but Vitalite is fucking dreadful!

 

[Calamity1971]

Ah thanks for that. I really don't want to go back to a dairy based spread but Vitalite is fucking dreadful!

Pure soya is better than vitalite if you need something in between whilst naturli get it sorted.
Also, flora buttery is now vegan. Don't know if it's any good though?

 

[editor]

Pure soya is better than vitalite if you need something in between whilst naturli get it sorted.
Also, flora buttery is now vegan. Don't know if it's any good though?

It used to be horrible but I'll give it a go. Thanks.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Well I had the most delicious soy ice cream the other day. It was smooth, gorgeous, raspberry ripple like.
And I was sick afterwards. Really had a dreadful reaction to it.
Weird pains in all my joints...stiff and sore and then a strange feeling up and down my left arm.
Stayed awake all night it was that bad. I cant be certain that it was a reaction to the soya..it could have been some other ingredient. Either way its a non runner for me though.

I'm really pissed off that it happened because I've been doing my best to stay on a low or no dairy diet. (Elimination diet low in phosphorus and potassium)

 

[Funky_monks]

You may have already watched it but Cowspiracy on Netflix goes along way to explain how these figures are arrived at , some shocking information that even allowing for some biased stats still give real cause to question what we generally believe to be the major contributor to GHGs , water use and food distribution and ultimately food shortages .

Here's a well referenced debunking of cowspiracy: An Ethical Meat Eater's Response To Cowspiracy. - Roots of Nature


And, of course, even the meats with the heaviest carbon footprint pale into insignificance when you compare them to the footprint of processed foods (such as the vegan spreads on this thread).

 

[editor]

Pure soya is better than vitalite if you need something in between whilst naturli get it sorted.
Also, flora buttery is now vegan. Don't know if it's any good though?

I stand corrected: I went for the ordinary vegan Flora and it's pretty tasty.

 

[editor]

Here's a well referenced debunking of cowspiracy: An Ethical Meat Eater's Response To Cowspiracy. - Roots of Nature


And, of course, even the meats with the heaviest carbon footprint pale into insignificance when you compare them to the footprint of processed foods (such as the vegan spreads on this thread).

Do people eat them in the same quantity as meat? Are rainforests being cleared to make vegan spreads? And what links have you go to support this claim?

 

[Funky_monks]

Do people eat them in the same quantity as meat? Are rainforests being cleared to make vegan spreads? And what links have you go to support this claim?

The rainforest is usually not cleared to graze cattle - its cleared to grow soya initially. When the fertility of the land drops, its then left to grass and the cattle farmers.

The article itself is referenced - scroll to the bottom.

You've just highlighted the problem with lumping all meat production in together.
As in the article- pasture is a carbon sink, and when you improve it, it absorbs more carbon. For example: a typical 150ac livestock farm removes 388 tonnes of carbon from the atmosphere annually. Feedlot production on the other hand, does not.
Greenhouse gas emissions
Above link is referenced.

I'm not sure what relevance the current levels of consumption of highly processed vegan foods has, really.

The answer, as far as farming in the UK/non forested areas is thought to be holistic farming, which has different applications depending on the system. In arable areas, no till, following crops with livestock in rotation helps to minimise soil loss/reduce the need for chemical fertilisers. In livestock areas, improving pasture/maximising grass use to avoid the need to buy in feed is the answer.

 

[editor]

The rainforest is usually not cleared to graze cattle - its cleared to grow soya initially. When the fertility of the land drops, its then left to grass and the cattle farmers.

The article itself is referenced - scroll to the bottom.

You've just highlighted the problem with lumping all meat production in together.
As in the article- pasture is a carbon sink, and when you improve it, it absorbs more carbon. For example: a typical 150ac livestock farm removes 388 tonnes of carbon from the atmosphere annually. Feedlot production on the other hand, does not.
Greenhouse gas emissions
Above link is referenced.

I'm not sure what relevance the current levels of consumption of highly processed vegan foods has, really.

The answer, as far as farming in the UK/non forested areas is thought to be holistic farming, which has different applications depending on the system. In arable areas, no till, following crops with livestock in rotation helps to minimise soil loss/reduce the need for chemical fertilisers. In livestock areas, improving pasture/maximising grass use to avoid the need to buy in feed is the answer.

Yes, I'll just settle down to a full plate of vegan spread, followed by a vegan spread burger with a vegan spread pie and a vegan spread kebab. Your comparison is ludicrous. 'Highly processed' vegan spread makes up a tiny percentage of most vegan's diet, whereas meat is central to that of a carnivore's. Stopping vegan spread won't make much of a difference to the environment, but drastically reducing global meat intake will.

 

[Funky_monks]

Yes, I'll just settle down to a full plate of vegan spread, followed by a vegan spread burger with a vegan spread pie and a vegan spread kebab. Your comparison is ludicrous. 'Highly processed' vegan spread makes up a tiny percentage of most vegan's diet, whereas meat is central to that of a carnivore's. Stopping vegan spread won't make much of a difference to the environment, but drastically reducing global meat intake will.

Except it won't, where the meat is raised on pasture - as I've already shown, pasture is a carbon sink.

That's the danger of lumping all meat production in together. Meat of whatever variety is produced on a variety of different systems.
Most sheep and beef in the UK are produced on pasture, and ergo are contributing to a net reduction in C02. Feedlot beef (which we don't go in for much here) isn't.
Veg and cereals are a bit more of a worry emissions wise (petrochemical fertilisers), but the use of these can be mitigated by the rotational grazing of livestock.

Did you actually read either of the articles I linked to and/or their associated references?

So; reducing meat produced intensively may well help reduce carbon emissions. I can avoid this, however, by eating British or Irish lamb or beef.
Pigs/chicken is a bit more complex, but the fact remains that both are less polluting than a ready made pizza, for example.

 

[editor]

Except it won't, where the meat is raised on pasture - as I've already shown, pasture is a carbon sink.

That's the danger of lumping all meat production in together. Meat of whatever variety is produced on a variety of different systems.
Most sheep and beef in the UK are produced on pasture, and ergo are contributing to a net reduction in C02. Feedlot beef (which we don't go in for much here) isn't.
Veg and cereals are a bit more of a worry emissions wise (petrochemical fertilisers), but the use of these can be mitigated by the rotational grazing of livestock.

Did you actually read either of the articles I linked to and/or their associated references?

So; reducing meat produced intensively may well help reduce carbon emissions. I can avoid this, however, by eating British or Irish lamb or beef.
Pigs/chicken is a bit more complex, but the fact remains that both are less polluting than a ready made pizza, for example.

Except the vast majority of people on this planet eat cheaply produced and often processed meat which consumes a shit load of resources. Your individual choice has just about zero impact in the bigger picture. Suggesting that that pizzas and vegan spreads are somehow worse for the environment is trite and misleading.

Eating meat has ‘dire’ consequences for the planet, says report
Why eating less meat is the best thing you can do for the planet in 2019

And the good news:
Americans are eating less meat and more plant-based foods these days. Here's how it's affecting the environment.

 

[gentlegreen]

The rainforest is usually not cleared to graze cattle - its cleared to grow soya initially. When the fertility of the land drops, its then left to grass and the cattle farmers.

Most soybeans are inefficiently fed to non-"grass-fed" animals.

Around 70 percent of the world's soy is fed directly to livestock and only six percent of soy is turned into human food, which is mostly consumed in Asia. The rest of soy is turned into soybean oil.

Explain Like I’m 5: Why Tofu Consumption Is Not Responsible for Soy-Related Deforestation

 

[Funky_monks]

Most soybeans are inefficiently fed to non-"grass-fed" animals.


The Surprising Way Your Diet can Fix the Soy and Deforestation Problem

Yes - so the answer is not to eat meat imported from places where that happens.
I'm not in favour of rainforest clearance, far from it.

The battle, in terms of the environment, can really be thought of as a battle for soils. It makes no sense to clear forest, because soils are lost (the access to extremely fertile soils is why they do it in the first place).

Soils are being lost in this country too, usually where the plough is employed - bare soils simply blow away. This is where the direct drill/no till systems have come from. These systems on their own still require fertiliser, but much less so where ruminants are grazed in rotation. When it comes to non arable farms - improving permanent pasture increases the soils ability to store carbon.

Manure is good for both, but better is compost- that is why you see more and more compost being spread, sourced from municipal facilities.

 

[Funky_monks]

Except the vast majority of people on this planet eat cheaply produced and often processed meat which consumes a shit load of resources. Your individual choice has just about zero impact in the bigger picture. Suggesting that that pizzas and vegan spreads are somehow worse for the environment is trite and misleading.

Eating meat has ‘dire’ consequences for the planet, says report
Why eating less meat is the best thing you can do for the planet in 2019

And the good news:
Americans are eating less meat and more plant-based foods these days. Here's how it's affecting the environment.

I can't do much about what people eat in other places, because I don't live there, but I can be aware of the impact that my food choices make here, and eating pasture raised meats actually helps. The USA used to have a pasture raised certification scheme, we could do with the same here.


Trite and misleading insomuch as it's true and therefore cutting out ready meals and processed foods has the potential to massively reduce our carbon footprint?

Are you now going to tell me that most people don't eat processed/ready prepared meals?

Edited to add - neither of your articles are referenced, so there's no way I can read/comment on the science that informed both of those opinion pieces.

 

[editor]

Edited to add - neither of your articles are referenced, so there's no way I can read/comment on the science that informed both of those opinion pieces.

You're going for denial? Try reading the links properly. They're stuffed full of references and links to sources.

Like this one
Huge reduction in meat-eating ‘essential’ to avoid climate breakdown
And this one
Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

How much red meat should you eat?
Meat consumption, health, and the environment | Science