Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[CNT36]

I agree with this, but it is tough and painful to contemplate. Which is not (of course) a reason not to contemplate it, rather a reason TO not just contemplate, but act.

LakieLady said upthread "Margaret Atwood was right: men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them.". I'd go a step further and say that men are also afraid that if they break ranks, other men will laugh at them. Part of the ceasefire you describe needs to be a step whereby men ARE prepared to break ranks with those who mistreat women, and call it out there and then. Until that can happen, men's behaviour will be an impenetrable wall whereby the worse of us are tolerated by the rest, because doing otherwise feels...uncomfortable.

At risk of warbling but I remember breaking ranks on various things at school and everyone laughing. I soon learnt not to. I think sometimes I mistook that as everyone being against me.There were some bullying arseholes and everyone would laugh along. I took everyone's laughter as them being the same and it took a while to realise that the ones who were giving out or encouraging mental, physical and sexual abuse (all male I think) were the real problem (such a problem one of my best mates at the time killed himself 8 years ago and the last time I spoke to him a few years before that it was all he was talking about). In the mean time I probably took a lot of it out on the wrong people mainly girls. Not in a hit them way but just saying horrible shit because there wasn't that seperation in my head. Long winded way of saying we have to try not to be scared of being laughed at and not to think it is the end of the world if people do even if it may hurt. Some people may agree with you but aren't ready to put their heads up yet.

 

[existentialist]

I was questioning the absence of a qualifier. Surely, it should be "some men" or even "most men", rather than "men"?
I agree that many men do see themselves of being "protectors" of women.

The point here, surely, is that if you are a woman - and have thus experienced all kinds of unpleasantness from men - you're not in a position to be deciding "ah, that one's OK, but this one isn't". At that point, ALL men are potential threats. I think this is a mindset that we men, not having to spend large parts of our lives in the same state of threat, just don't get, at least not without a lot of mental gymnastics and hard thought. Yes, there is probably a bit of mansplaining in that lot, but I hope I'm vaguely on the right track.

And, to the extent that we don't call out our mates on unpleasant behaviour (particularly towards women)), we ARE ALL part of the problem.

I don't particularly care for the more personalised criticisms which sometimes surface, ie. suggesting that I, singular, am part of the problem, but that is very different from accepting that, as a gender overall, we have some serious heavy lifting to do if we are going to ever get to the point where the problematic men can be seen as an outlier, rather than an indistinguishable part of the group.

 

[Pickman's model]

as a gender overall

as a sex

 

[CNT36]

The point here, surely, is that if you are a woman - and have thus experienced all kinds of unpleasantness from men - you're not in a position to be deciding "ah, that one's OK, but this one isn't". At that point, ALL men are potential threats. I think this is a mindset that we men, not having to spend large parts of our lives in the same state of threat, just don't get, at least not without a lot of mental gymnastics and hard thought. Yes, there is probably a bit of mansplaining in that lot, but I hope I'm vaguely on the right track.

And, to the extent that we don't call out our mates on unpleasant behaviour (particularly towards women)), we ARE ALL part of the problem.

I don't particularly care for the more personalised criticisms which sometimes surface, ie. suggesting that I, singular, am part of the problem, but that is very different from accepting that, as a gender overall, we have some serious heavy lifting to do if we are going to ever get to the point where the problematic men can be seen as an outlier, rather than an indistinguishable part of the group.

I always try to remember how I see myself is not how others see me. In the past I'd not think of myself as a threat physically and didn't have the desire to hurt anyone. No one knows that is what I'm thinking and I don't know what their understandable perceptions of me might be. So by going about my business in a bubble of ignorance I was very much a part of the problem.

ETA, may still be part of the problem but hopefully less so at the very least.

 

[PTK]

I always try to remember how I see myself is not how others see me. In the past I'd not think of myself as a threat physically and didn't have the desire to hurt anyone. No one knows that is what I'm thinking or what their understandable perceptions of me might be. So by going about my business in a bubble of ignorance I was very much a part of the problem.

I am now in my 60s, and since I was about 20 I have tried to behave in ways that are not seen as threatening to women when walking home late at night, etc.

 

[story]

The point here, surely, is that if you are a woman - and have thus experienced all kinds of unpleasantness from men - you're not in a position to be deciding "ah, that one's OK, but this one isn't". At that point, ALL men are potential threats. I think this is a mindset that we men, not having to spend large parts of our lives in the same state of threat, just don't get, at least not without a lot of mental gymnastics and hard thought. Yes, there is probably a bit of mansplaining in that lot, but I hope I'm vaguely on the right track.

And, to the extent that we don't call out our mates on unpleasant behaviour (particularly towards women)), we ARE ALL part of the problem.

I don't particularly care for the more personalised criticisms which sometimes surface, ie. suggesting that I, singular, am part of the problem, but that is very different from accepting that, as a gender overall, we have some serious heavy lifting to do if we are going to ever get to the point where the problematic men can be seen as an outlier, rather than an indistinguishable part of the group.

Mate. This (bolded) is part of the problem.

It’s not me… I find it difficult to think about myself in these terms…. I don’t care to be considered as part of the problem….

That’s part of the problem.


What are you actually saying here?

“I don’t particularly care…” is an interesting way to phrase your idea.

I don't particularly care for the more personalised criticisms which sometimes surface, ie. suggesting that I, singular, am part of the problem,

Do you mean you don’t care that you, yourself, may be part of the problem?
Do you mean you don’t like that you yourself are part of the problem?
Do you mean you don’t like the criticism because it’s not true?
Do you mean you don’t like /care that criticisms are sometimes personalised?




It takes all men, the ones who don’t see themselves as part of the problem included, and maybe even especially, to tackle this stuff.

Men (humans) generally, draw the line of what’s okay exactly where they themselves stand. And that line is exactly where the push back, the examination, needs to happen.

If men say “I’m not the problem but he is” how can you/they ask or expect any other man to look at themselves?

“I don’t need to tackle anything internally but you do”.

You know this existentialist : if a person is unwilling to examine themselves around a particular issue, they probably need to do exactly that.

 

[story]

The point here, surely, is that if you are a woman - and have thus experienced all kinds of unpleasantness from men - you're not in a position to be deciding "ah, that one's OK, but this one isn't". At that point, ALL men are potential threats. I think this is a mindset that we men, not having to spend large parts of our lives in the same state of threat, just don't get, at least not without a lot of mental gymnastics and hard thought. Yes, there is probably a bit of mansplaining in that lot, but I hope I'm vaguely on the right track.

And, to the extent that we don't call out our mates on unpleasant behaviour (particularly towards women)), we ARE ALL part of the problem.

I don't particularly care for the more personalised criticisms which sometimes surface, ie. suggesting that I, singular, am part of the problem, but that is very different from accepting that, as a gender overall, we have some serious heavy lifting to do if we are going to ever get to the point where the problematic men can be seen as an outlier, rather than an indistinguishable part of the group.

And
Walking alone in the woods, would you rather encounter a man you don’t know, or a bear?

Man Or Bear? Many Women Say They’d Rather Be Stuck In The Woods With A Bear In Latest Viral TikTok Debate

The viral question, explored in thousands of TikTok videos, has sparked conversation about violence against women.

www.forbes.com

 

[GarveyLives]

"A thug who beat his partner with a mop handle in what police called a 'series of abusive acts' has been jailed. Domestic abuser Wayne Clarkson, 53, cut clothing belonging to his then girlfriend with a pair of scissors, police said as he began a prison sentence ..."

(source: Greater Manchester Police)

Wayne Clarkson​

Domestic abuse thug beat partner with mop handle and slashed her clothes with scissors

 

[GarveyLives]

"Mystery continues to surround the death of a woman who ran into the street on fire - after an inquest into her death concluded. Sarah Hussain - also known as Nosheen Akhtar - died after suffering horrific burns at her home in East Street, Bury.

An inquest at Rochdale Coroners Court previously heard Ms Hussain, 31, told paramedics her husband, Waqas Mahmood, had 'set her on fire'. Other witnesses claimed she told them she set herself ablaze.

Mr Mahmood, who was initially arrested on suspicion of murder before being released without charge, denied setting fire to his wife and said she set herself ablaze following a row over his ongoing relationship with his ex-wife ..."

Death of woman who ran into street on fire remains a mystery as husband accused of showing 'absolute disregard' for her

"A Bury woman who died after being doused in a flammable liquid did not take her own life, a coroner has ruled ...

On July 23, 2021, Sarah Hussain came running out of her house on East Street, Bury, engulfed in flames, with her clothes having been soaked in white spirits.

In the chaos that followed, neighbours extinguished the fire, but the damage had already been done. She died the following day at Wythenshawe Hospital.

People present inside the house said that she had set herself on fire, while she told paramedics that her husband, Waqas Mahmood, had set her alight.

Murder arrests followed for Mr Mahmood, his brother, Hasnain, and Murtza Safeer, who were all present at the house on the day, but were dropped soon afterwards ..."

Sarah Hussain: Woman who was doused in white spirits did not commit suicide, coroner rules

(Source: as stated in image)

The Late Nosheen Akhtar, also known as Sarah Hussain​

Background:

"A woman who died after suffering severe burns told paramedics 'her husband threw liquid on her' before 'setting her on fire', an inquest has heard ..."

'My husband, he did it,' tragic woman screamed after running into the street on fire

"The husband of a woman who died after running into the street on fire has denied setting her alight, telling a inquest they were ‘a happy couple’ ..."

Husband denies setting wife on fire saying she had ‘done it to herself' and he 'saved her'

"A lighter found at the scene where a woman was set on fire had her husband and brother-in-law's DNA on it, an inquest has heard.

Nosheen Akhtar, 31, died after suffering horrific burns when she was set alight at her home in East Street, Bury, on the evening of July 23, 2021.

An inquest at Rochdale Coroner’s Court has heard that after running into the street ablaze, Ms Akhtar told paramedics that 'her husband threw liquid on her' before 'setting her on fire' ..."

Lighter found at scene where tragic woman was set on fire had husband and brother-in-law's DNA on it

"The inquest into the death of a woman who ran into the street on fire has been adjourned to allow for the CPS to further review the case after they were handed body worn footage ..."

CPS reviewing new bodycam footage of woman who died after telling paramedics husband 'set her on fire'

"The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has apologised to the family of a Bury woman who died from severe burns after her inquest was adjourned again.

An investigation into the death of Nosheen Akhtar, who was also known as Sarah Hussain, was halted after it was found the CPS had failed to conduct a full review of the evidence heard throughout proceedings ..."

Nosheen Akhtar: CPS apologise after inquest delayed again

"The ex-partner of a man, whose wife died after suffering horrific burns which were said to have been caused by setting fire to herself, says he was violent towards her during their relationship ..."

Sarah Hussain: Man whose wife 'set fire to herself' was violent in past relationship, inquest told

(Source: as stated in image)​

Anyone with information regarding what really happened to The Late Nosheen Akhtar, also known as Sarah Hussain on 23 July 2021 should contact Greater Manchester Police's Major Incidents Team who can be reached on LiveChat on their website, www.gmp.police.uk, or call 0161 856 7386 quoting log number 2802 of 23/07/21.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I was questioning the absence of a qualifier. Surely, it should be "some men" or even "most men", rather than "men"?
I agree that many men do see themselves of being "protectors" of women.

Really? Do we need to add NAMNAW to every fucking post again? I thought we had finally moved beyond that .

 

[GarveyLives]

Having reached the age of 18, Hassan Sentamu can now legally be named as the person who has admitted killing 15 year-old schoolgirl Elianne Andam in the centre of Croydon as she made her way to school on on 27 September 2023:

At his most recent appearance at the Old Bailey on 14 March 2024, Hassan Sentamu admitted killing Elianne, by pleading to manslaughter, but denied her murder. The plea was not accepted by the prosecution and a trial is set to take place on 25 November 2024 at the same court.

Hassan Sentamu also denied possessing a blade in a public place.

Proceedings are now active in this case and nothing should be reported that could risk prejudicing those proceedings.

 

[Glitter]

I agree that many men do see themselves of being "protectors" of women.

From who?

 

[friendofdorothy]

From who?

From other men - but not men. ..

whoops edit to - but not all men. . .

 

[Aladdin]

Dont quote please as I will edit this later.

I worked as a teacher for over 25 years until recently. I encountered the most misogynistic nasty shit of a principal.

(...post edited and details removed.....)

I learned that women who stand up against misogyny are still seen as troublemaking loud annoying complaining & hysterical. The one male teacher who complained ...ended up leaving because the principal hounded him for over a year....watched him on camera ..followed him around.

Power corrupts eh?
Men who abuse their power are dangerous to everyone.

 

[Aladdin]

The shocking case of Natasha O'Brien shows that Ireland is still a cold country for women | Justine McCarthy

We thought our country had become tolerant and inclusive, but the state still regards a woman’s safety as secondary to a man’s job, says Irish journalist Justine McCarthy

www.theguardian.com

This young woman was beaten up on her way home from work by an off duty soldier. He was drunk with his pals and shouting homophobic slurs at a guy. She intervened by saying something to them. For that...the off duty soldier beat her knocked her to the ground & beat her on the ground. She lost consciousness. She ended up having blackouts...had to stop working. The soldier ended up having to admit guilt because there was cctv footage. But he tried to imply she started things. The cctv showed otherwise. He got a suspended sentence of 3 years.

"At Crotty’s sentencing hearing last week, judge Tom O’Donnell described the crime as “utterly appalling” and then fully suspended his three-year jail sentence on the grounds that the convicted man had pleaded guilty and that a custodial sentence could harm his career in the army. The matter would have ended there, except that Crotty had picked on the wrong woman. O’Brien left the courtroom and, with exceptional eloquence, declared that the system had abandoned her."


She spoke outside the courtroom. And she has not stopped speaking out. So much so that the army has held its own inquiry and he has been dismissed. She is now a very strong voice for women.

 

[friendofdorothy]

. . .

Power corrupts eh?
Men who abuse their power are dangerous to everyone.

Yes. And if they are seen as 'one of us' or 'a good chap' by their peers, then how can complaints against them be true. Their victims are ignored and disbeleived.

 

[Aladdin]

Yes. And if they are seen as 'one of us' or 'a good chap' by their peers, then how can complaints against them be true. Their victims are ignored

.

 

[Aladdin]

Apologies for writing so much about my work experiences.
It's only now that I am away from that place that I am able to speak.

I don't know why I put up with so much for so long.

Edited most of my stuff now

 

[ElizabethofYork]

The shocking case of Natasha O'Brien shows that Ireland is still a cold country for women | Justine McCarthy

We thought our country had become tolerant and inclusive, but the state still regards a woman’s safety as secondary to a man’s job, says Irish journalist Justine McCarthy

www.theguardian.com

This young woman was beaten up on her way home from work by an off duty soldier. He was drunk with his pals and shouting homophobic slurs at a guy. She intervened by saying something to them. For that...the off duty soldier beat her knocked her to the ground & beat her on the ground. She lost consciousness. She ended up having blackouts...had to stop working. The soldier ended up having to admit guilt because there was cctv footage. But he tried to imply she started things. The cctv showed otherwise. He got a suspended sentence of 3 years.

"At Crotty’s sentencing hearing last week, judge Tom O’Donnell described the crime as “utterly appalling” and then fully suspended his three-year jail sentence on the grounds that the convicted man had pleaded guilty and that a custodial sentence could harm his career in the army. The matter would have ended there, except that Crotty had picked on the wrong woman. O’Brien left the courtroom and, with exceptional eloquence, declared that the system had abandoned her."


She spoke outside the courtroom. And she has not stopped speaking out. So much so that the army has held its own inquiry and he has been dismissed. She is now a very strong voice for women.

Suspended sentence! Fucks sake.

 

[Aladdin]

Suspended sentence! Fucks sake.

Yep.
disgraceful.

Natasha opened up about how she felt. She has taken the country by storm ...marches have taken place about her treatment. She has been to the Dáil and spoken there. Rallies all over the country have taken place with Natasha speaking out.
Finally the army held an inquiry abd sacked the soldier.

What was really shit was his social media posts about what he had done. "Two to put her down two to put her out".
She made the point that the army is there to protect the citizens. And that he had gone against what it means to be a soldier.

 

[Lotte]

And then soldiers wonder why civvies are frightened of them.

 

[trashpony]

The queue of men who raped Gisèle Pelicot when she was drugged unconscious by her husband is so long, it stretches outside the courtroom

 

[Sue]

Christ, I don't have the words.

 

[Dystopiary]

Something's been bothering me a lot on this subject and I wondered what others thought. "Defences" such as the following shouldn't be permitted in court.

[Content warning - rape]

This woman's then-boyfriend raped her and sexually assaulted her and filmed the abuse while she was asleep, multiple times. She's waived her right to anonymity to talk about what happened to her.

This crap I find very disturbing:

In mitigation barrister David Leathley said the defendant was "slavishly in a state of devotion" in regards to Miss Jones who was "the divinity he was worshiping".

He said in his client's mind what he did on the night in question was "an act of worship" towards his partner.

This utter horseshit is quite dangerous imo. He "worshipped" her, like it was his way of showing how much he adored her. "In my client's mind" he wasn't able to know right from wrong, he didn't know that making someone have sex without their consent is the opposite of loving, that it's controlling and hateful. The barrister basically said these were acts of devotion, ie, love (that the woman had no say in of course) to get the jury to relate to and pity the perpetrator. The way defence barristers are allowed to behave in sex crime court cases is horrific.

My boyfriend raped me and I only found out when I saw the footage

 

[zedr]

Something's been bothering me a lot on this subject and I wondered what others thought. "Defences" such as the following shouldn't be permitted in court.

[Content warning - rape]

This woman's then-boyfriend raped her and sexually assaulted her and filmed the abuse while she was asleep, multiple times. She's waived her right to anonymity to talk about what happened to her.

This crap I find very disturbing:



This utter horseshit is quite dangerous imo. He "worshipped" her, like it was his way of showing how much he adored her. "In my client's mind" he wasn't able to know right from wrong, he didn't know that making someone have sex without their consent is the opposite of loving, that it's controlling and hateful. The barrister basically said these were acts of devotion, ie, love (that the woman had no say in of course) to get the jury to relate to and pity the perpetrator. The way defence barristers are allowed to behave in sex crime court cases is horrific.

My boyfriend raped me and I only found out when I saw the footage

Yeah, I mentioned this upthread but a friends daughter was treated the same way in a rape trail. Surely it must be possible to do your job presenting the evidence for your client without significantly increasing the victims trauma? The way a lot of defense barristers in rape cases act fundamentally undermines the judicial process as it makes fewer women want to come forward and go through the process.

 

[Dystopiary]

Yeah, I mentioned this upthread but a friends daughter was treated the same way in a rape trail. Surely it must be possible to do your job presenting the evidence for your client without significantly increasing the victims trauma? The way a lot of defense barristers in rape cases act fundamentally undermines the judicial process as it makes fewer women want to come forward and go through the process.

Oh yes, I remember you did. That was horrible. Yeah, it's not right at all.

 

[PTK]

Deleted, as I do not know how to put things in a spoiler, as has been suggested.

 

[existentialist]

Interesting podcast on the word "cunt". From a feminist perspective.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Fuck off PTK

 

[PTK]

Fuck off PTK

Very witty.