Manchester Arena incident - many reported dead

[LiamO]

Their proxies in Norniron seem to have been kept on-side once they were stood down.

Maybe because
a) they had no ideology / belief of their own - other than following the orders of their 'betters'.

b) they were spoon-fed right through and still had fuck all to write home about capability-wise

c) Shooting taigs interferes with the selling of narcotics

 

[elbows]

On Newsnight they discussed having a source that said that during the 2011 timeframe before Tripoli fell, the bomber (then aged 16) and his dad were in Belhadj's group of fighters. Belhadj being the guy that is best known in the UK for taking the UK government & Jack Straw to court over rendition. A guy I first became aware of as he rolled up in a convoy of vehicles shortly after Gaddafi's Tripoli compound fell, and then proceeded to give a live on-camera interview from there to Al Jazeera.

 

[The39thStep]

This was raised by a member of the public on Questions Time last night. Dimbleby immediately moved the debate away from it and back to Prevent.

No doubt there is a queasiness about this at the BBC given May would have been Home Secretary at the time that these 5 warnings were made.

She would also have been Home Secretary when the terrorist and others returned from fighting alongside Libyan Islamic militants and were allowed back into the UK with no control order or questions asked.

For sections of the left - see Burnham - pursuing the Tories on this is also problematic as it directly undermines their narrative that these are random acts and that essentially these things just happen and in no way reflect a set of ideas that have agency in a section of the Muslim community.

Speaking of Burnham it would be interesting to find out who briefs him on Prevent and Islamic extremism. He came out with Islamist crowd pleasing line that the terrorist attack was nothing to do with Islam whereas Sarah Kahn and a Muslim member of the audience hit the nail on the head .

 

[RD2003]

The clue as to whether this has anything to do with Islam might be found in the terms Islamist or jihadi.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The clue as to whether this has anything to do with Islam might be found in the terms Islamist or jihadi.

Except Islam is a religion and Islamism is a political ideology.

 

[RD2003]

Except Islam is a religion and Islamism is a political ideology.

Yes, inspired, as the name suggests, by Islam. Next!

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes, inspired, as the name suggests, by Islam. Next!

Yet rejected by more Muslims than not who might take issue with your "inspired by Islam" schpiel.

 

[RD2003]

In fact, to hear some people talk, you'd think that Islamism would still exist even even Islam had never come into being.

Few things amaze as much as a human being's ability to delude him/herself.

 

[RD2003]

Yet rejected by more Muslims than not who might take issue with your "inspired by Islam" schpiel.

Did anybody claim that most Muslims don't reject it?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

In fact, to hear some people talk, you'd think that Islamism would still exist even even Islam had never come into being.

Few things compare to a human being's ability to delude him/herself.

It's just fascism with a clerical face so of course it already exists in other guises.

 

[RD2003]

It's just fascism with a clerical face so of course it already exists in other guises.

Yes, a kind of fascism inspired by a certain reading of the Koran.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes, a kind of fascism inspired by a certain reading of the Koran.

Or a fascist's take on the Koran. If the Koran didn't exist would they cease being a fascist?

 

[existentialist]

Did anybody claim that most Muslims don't reject it?

No, because those who like to join the dots from "terrorism" to "muslims" like to carefully elide such fine distinctions.

 

[RD2003]

Or a fascist's take on the Koran. If the Koran didn't exist would they cease being a fascist?

Fascists are always there, hanging in the ether, waiting for an ideology to lock on to...

 

[RD2003]

No, because those who like to join the dots from "terrorism" to "muslims" like to carefully elide such fine distinctions.

Some might; I don't.

 

[Pickman's model]

Some might; I don't.

good for you

 

[RD2003]

good for you

Thanks.

 

[hot air baboon]

Per James Wheeler, who knows Libya, on Twitter, Abedi Sr post the Islamic Fighting Group is now associated with the Ghariani family in Tripoli. The father Sadiq is Libya's mufti and routinely attacks Haftar and the Tobruk government (secular-leaning) as apostates; the son Sohail has apparently been left to enter the UK on a few occasions to preach at mosques favoured by radicals.

 

[Wilf]

Yes, a kind of fascism inspired by a certain reading of the Koran.

Was the conflict in the north of Ireland about fanatical readings of the bible?

 

[Who PhD]

Rudd seems to be saying somethiing very familiar...

"it is not about resources"? lulwut?

 

[RD2003]

Was the conflict in the north of Ireland about fanatical readings of the bible?

No. You know it wasn't.

But that's irrelevant, as the situation there and what we are dealing with now is in no way comparable (and it's also pointless to get into a drawn- out argument along the lines of 'violent passages are in the bible as well'...'US Christian fundamentalists are known for sometimes shooting people' etc etc.)

I suppose if people want to claim that Islamism is nothing to do with Islam, then you might as well let them get on with it. Which is what I'll be doing.

 

[Wilf]

No. You know it wasn't.

But that's irrelevant, as the situation there and what we are dealing with now is in no way comparable (and it's also pointless to get into a drawn- out argument along the lines of 'violent passages are in the bible as well'...'US Christian fundamentalists are known for sometimes shooting people' etc etc.)

I suppose if people want to claim that Islamism is nothing to do with Islam, then you might as well let them get on with it. Which is what I'll be doing.

I'm not suggesting Islamism has nothing to do with Islam. But the important issue is to work out why people are becoming Islamists - and the answer to that isn't theological, it's about power, influence and geopolitics. I'm not a fan of hierarchical religions or, more accurately, the hierarchies that attach themselves to religions - and I detest religious conservatism/fascism. But the answer to all this is in the world, it isn't about interpretations of dusty scrolls.

 

[8den]

No. You know it wasn't.

But that's irrelevant, as the situation there and what we are dealing with now is in no way comparable

Are you really going to stand/sit/shit here and tell us there was no religious or sectarian element to the conflict in NI?

 

[xenon]

Precisely. You can't destroy philosophies. You can to an extent destroyed those who follow them. Better to do something to reduce the motivation to follow them.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I'm not suggesting Islamism has nothing to do with Islam. But the important issue is to work out why people are becoming Islamists - and the answer to that isn't theological, it's about power, influence and geopolitics. I'm not a fan of hierarchical religions or, more accurately, the hierarchies that attach themselves to religions - and I detest religious conservatism/fascism. But the answer to all this is in the world, it isn't about interpretations of dusty scrolls.

I don't know how a proper explanation could avoid any of those influences. Surely power, politics and ideology all play a part. How could a person's thoughts and beliefs - the most important factor in determining a person's actions - not be involved somewhere along the way? It's just bizarre to deny that.

 

[elbows]

Per James Wheeler, who knows Libya, on Twitter, Abedi Sr post the Islamic Fighting Group is now associated with the Ghariani family in Tripoli. The father Sadiq is Libya's mufti and routinely attacks Haftar and the Tobruk government (secular-leaning) as apostates; the son Sohail has apparently been left to enter the UK on a few occasions to preach at mosques favoured by radicals.

That being the Mufti who was in the UK in 2014 until the Guardian said he was broadcasting stuff to support the Islamist fighters who took Tripoli. He was then banned from the UK and made his way back to Libya via Qatar and some other places.

I was not familiar with James Wheeler until you mentioned him. He how seems to be saying that the father of the bomber is an employee of the ministry of interior of the government of national accord in Libya.

 

[RD2003]

Are you really going to stand/sit/shit here and tell us there was no religious or sectarian element to the conflict in NI?

No, and didn't do it in my post above either.

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you really going to stand/sit/shit here and tell us there was no religious or sectarian element to the conflict in NI?

but i suppose this is when you remount your hobby horse about the ira

 

[RD2003]

I'm not suggesting Islamism has nothing to do with Islam. But the important issue is to work out why people are becoming Islamists - and the answer to that isn't theological, it's about power, influence and geopolitics. I'm not a fan of hierarchical religions or, more accurately, the hierarchies that attach themselves to religions - and I detest religious conservatism/fascism. But the answer to all this is in the world, it isn't about interpretations of dusty scrolls.

I didn't deny any of that. What I said was that if they want to find justificatiion for their actions, they can go the Islamic scriptures. Other Muslims, for one reason or another, no doubt put a different or more nuanced slant on the relevant passages.

And if they're prepared to die for it, they, or those prompting them, clearly believe in their particular interpretation wholeheartedly. This fond notion of terrorists (somehow ready-made or born that way) and/or criminals casting around for a convenient justification for their actions just doesn't wash. Especially when the perpetrators were Muslims in the first place or 'reverted' to Islam.

 

[8den]

No, and didn't do it in my post above either.

So you're admitting religion was a major factor in the violence in the North, but don't see how it's relevant to current terrorist attacks, because....