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London SlutWalk - now *11th*June, 1pm Trafalgar Square

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I'm in two minds about this whole thing. Just read another article about it on the beeb.

Whilst I accept that calling people sluts or saying they dress like sluts is wrong and whilst I accept that people should be able to dress however they like...

We have to acknowledge that dressing a certain way does currently (and most likely will always) create a certain impression in minority of bad eggs.

No one is immune from the possibility of getting cancer.
Smoking makes you more vulnerable to the likihood of getting cancer.

Seeking a cure to cancer makes sense. Giving up smoking also makes sense though despite the fact people enjoy it and should have the right to smoke if they want to.

However despite saying that... is there a definate link to the way women dress and their likihood of assault?
Statistical studies prove the smoking link to cancer. Is there in fact any statistical evidence regarding assaults? Perhaps someone with more knowledge in this area could point out whther there is or isn't or whether its just an assumption on the part of some.
 
Gromit said:
I'm in two minds about this whole thing. Just read another article about it on the beeb.

Whilst I accept that calling people sluts or saying they dress like sluts is wrong and whilst I accept that people should be able to dress however they like...

We have to acknowledge that dressing a certain way does currently (and most likely will always) create a certain impression in minority of bad eggs.

No one is immune from the possibility of getting cancer.
Smoking makes you more vulnerable to the likihood of getting cancer.

Seeking a cure to cancer makes sense. Giving up smoking also makes sense though despite the fact people enjoy it and should have the right to smoke if they want to.

However despite saying that... is there a definate link to the way women dress and their likihood of assault?
Statistical studies prove the smoking link to cancer. Is there in fact any statistical evidence regarding assaults? Perhaps someone with more knowledge in this area could point out whther there is or isn't or whether its just an assumption on the part of some.
Click to expand...

woah!

Can you not see the huge flaw in you argument???

cancer is not sentient, it is random, it is an uncontrollable fact of life.

Rapists are individual people choosing to do something dreadful to another person. They are not an uncontrollable fact of life. We don't have to throw up our hands and accept that some people will be raped. Doing so is really, horribly wrongheaded.

Ugh.
 
spanglechick said:
woah!

Can you not see the huge flaw in you argument???

cancer is not sentient, it is random, it is an uncontrollable fact of life.

Rapists are individual people choosing to do something dreadful to another person. They are not an uncontrollable fact of life. We don't have to throw up our hands and accept that some people will be raped. Doing so is really, horribly wrongheaded.

Ugh.
Click to expand...

I'm saying that people are trying to cure a cancer of society. Attempting to change an minority aspect of culture (at least i hope its a minority). A task just as difficult as finding a cure for cancer. It wouldn't hurt to give up smoking in until thats achieved or at least recognise that there is an increased risk if you do not (not be surprised by the fact).

Rapist are not an uncontrolable fact of life?

Until society genetical alters embroyos to eliminate crime or some such dubious practice then rapists will continue to exist. So unfortunately yes they are a fact of life. Not that you don't fight against facts of life.
 
If only I had been wearing something sexay when I was sexually assaulted... it must have been the jeans and hoody that did it.
 
Gromit said:
I'm saying that people are trying to cure a cancer of society. Attempting to change an minority aspect of culture (at least i hope its a minority). A task just as difficult as finding a cure for cancer. It wouldn't hurt to give up smoking in until thats achieved or at least recognise that there is an increased risk if you do not (not be surprised by the fact).
Click to expand...

You really need to go away and think though what you're posting right now.
 
spanglechick said:
woah!

Can you not see the huge flaw in you argument???

cancer is not sentient, it is random, it is an uncontrollable fact of life.

Rapists are individual people choosing to do something dreadful to another person. They are not an uncontrollable fact of life. We don't have to throw up our hands and accept that some people will be raped. Doing so is really, horribly wrongheaded.

Ugh.
Click to expand...

Whilist I agree its not a great comparison and this is a slight derail but as someone who lives with a person who is dedicating her life to 'defeating' cancer I feel I can say cancer is not random, it can be controlled, it will be controlled. My girlfriend is most certainly not going to throw her hands up and acccept that some people just get cancer.
 
stephj said:
If only I had been wearing something sexay when I was sexually assaulted... it must have been the jeans and hoody that did it.
Click to expand...

Well that was the other part of what i posted. Is there any evidence that dress does affect likihood?
I've never seen any but its assumed that it does. I'd be curious to know if any such evidence exists.

Its a bit like when people claim violent video games create violence. But do they?
 
ddraig said:
but they're only poor men, with like urges and stuff!
poor men :(
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying the the world is full of evil shit. People seem to shoot people down those who say you should protect yourself from that evil shit. Instead the evil shit is supposed to obey your wishes and just go away ant not affect your lifestyle. That would be nice but a wise person might wish for that but takes precautions anyway.

I used to see it all the time in health and safety. I don't like wearing a hard hat so shouldn't have to. Employers should make it impossible for falling objects to occur so that I don't have to. Employers should indeed try their best but they will never ever be 100% successful due to the nature of a building site.
 
Gromit said:
I'm not saying that.

I'm saying the the world is full of evil shit. People seem to shoot people down those who say you should protect yourself from that evil shit. Instead the evil shit is supposed to obey your wishes and just go away ant not affect your lifestyle. That would be nice but a wise person might wish for that but takes precautions anyway.

I used to see it all the time in health and safety. I don't like wearing a hard hat so shouldn't have to. Employers should make it impossible for falling objects to occur so that I don't have to. Employers should indeed try their best but they will never ever be 100% successful due to the nature of a building site.
Click to expand...

are you pissed? :confused:
 
it doesn't make much sense no
unless you really are saying "shit happens, like stuff falls from high up and can hurt you so you have to wear a helmet, it would be nice if stuff didn't fall and hurt people but they do so" = "shit happens, there are evil men out there who think women who don't dress like victorians are fair game for rape, so you have to dress carefully and cover up, it would be nice if evil men didn't exist and want to rape women but they do so"

is that what you are saying?
 
I guess what i was asking was..

Is the outrage primarily against the suggestion that a women could reduce her chances of attack by dressing more conservatively.

Or cause the copper said it along the lines of "Well you shouldn't have dressed like a slut then should you?"

And I was saying that whilst the later is obviously well out of order we shouldn't nessesarily dismiss that there could be some merit to the former (cause we want to wear what the hell we like) if there is evidence to support that this is the case.
 
to imagine that society and culture play no part in how much rape is committed is massively wrongheaded too. In some other countries (such as south africa), rape is frighteningly commonplace in the last 20 yrs or so. Why not here?

among youth gangs gangrape is being used commonly as a gang initiation. why hasn't that always been the case?

there isn't just a certain amount of rape that happens among human beings. it varies depending on the type of society and attitudes people are living in. if we can change attitudes, we can cut rapes (and sexual assaults). Slutwalk is all about trying to proactively change attitudes. attitudes like yours, in fact.
 
Gromit said:
I guess what i was asking was..

Is the outrage primarily against the suggestion that a women could reduce her chances of attack by dressing more conservatively.

Or cause the copper said it along the lines of "Well you shouldn't have dressed like a slut then should you?"

And I was saying that whilst the later is obviously well out of order we shouldn't nessesarily dismiss that there could be some merit to the former (cause we want to wear what the hell we like) if there is evidence to support that this is the case.
Click to expand...

what do YOU think?
and how can you evidence such things? where would you draw the line?
 
spanglechick said:
to imagine that society and culture play no part in how much rape is committed is massively wrongheaded too. In some other countries (such as south africa), rape is frighteningly commonplace in the last 20 yrs or so. Why not here?

among youth gangs gangrape is being used commonly as a gang initiation. why hasn't that always been the case?

there isn't just a certain amount of rape that happens among human beings. it varies depending on the type of society and attitudes people are living in. if we can change attitudes, we can cut rapes (and sexual assaults). Slutwalk is all about trying to proactively change attitudes. attitudes like yours, in fact.
Click to expand...

Not like mine and I support the changing of attitudes. But its not going to happen overnight and people need to recognise that the dangers of which you speak exist and that campaigning against them doesn't magically make you immune to them. Protect yourself too.

Which led me to ask is covering up a legitmate form of protection or just a bullshit assumption.
 
ddraig said:
what do YOU think?
and how can you evidence such things? where would you draw the line?
Click to expand...

I think that for some its former and for others later. I wanted to know what people here thought.

I don't know how you evidence such things which was why i was asking on here if people knew of any evidence as urbanites often seem clued up on such things.

Obviously you draw the line at Burkas and such things and long before then but where exactly ain't easy to say.
 
Gromit said:
Not like mine and I support the changing of attitudes. But its not going to happen overnight and people need to recognise that the dangers of which you speak exist and that campaigning against them doesn't magically make you immune to them. Protect yourself too.

Which led me to ask is covering up a legitmate form of protection or just a bullshit assumption.
Click to expand...

Yes like yours. living in a society where the prevailing attitude is that a woman should modify her dress so she's less likely to be sexually attacked makes the perception of women weaker. it enforces patriarchal attitudes. take away the patriarchal attitudes and the attacks will decline.

there's a reason whey everyone's shooting you down, you know.
 
spanglechick said:
living in a society where the prevailing attitude is that a woman should modify her dress so she's less likely to be sexually attacked makes the perception of women weaker. it enforces patriarchal attitudes.
Click to expand...

Thats a fair point, well argued which i accept.

(Please note I'm not married to the idea that women should change their clothing. Don't assume I am, this is a discussion board. I want to hear debate and so far this is the best point that has been made)

spanglechick said:
take away the patriarchal attitudes and the attacks will decline.
Click to expand...

Not so sure if this bit is true though. Do places highly patrialchal places like afganistan have a high record of rape? Has a direct correlation between the two been made?
 
Gromit said:
Thats a fair point, well argued which i accept.

(Please note I'm not married to the idea that women should change their clothing. Don't assume I am, this is a discussion board. I want to hear debate and so far this is the best point that has been made)



Not so sure if this bit is true though. Do places highly patrialchal places like afganistan have a high record of rape? Has a direct correlation between the two been made?
Click to expand...

you can't compare like with like - reporting rates, for a start, are likely to be lower. but certainly there is documented and horrific physical abuse against women in countries such as afghanistan which wouldn't happen here.

if you look at cultures where rapes are high, there's a lot going on. contributory factors. the men there aren't just more evil.

but to commit that kind of violence on a person you need to view them as being lesser than yourself (see also attacks on the elderly / children / the disabled) of less value and importance. a patriarchal attitude to women and their autonomous right to dress however they like is essentially diminishing the status of women. making them lesser.
 
spanglechick said:
you can't compare like with like - reporting rates, for a start, are likely to be lower.
Click to expand...

A fair point.

Out of interest this link provides stats (per capita and by total reported):
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

The scandiavian countries (which many consider the hotest when it comes to equality) don't do quite as well as expected (No stats for Sweden unfortunately).

To be honest there are quite a few surprises there imo.

I would have thought Canada and Italy would have been the other way around. Whats Australia doing so high up the table.
 
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