That's really interesting, cheers. Also gives a number of other reasons for rape, other than power. Like anger, sadism and sexual gratification. I think that places the whole 'power' argument in context for me. Rape isn't always just about power, but it sometimes is.
London SlutWalk - now *11th*June, 1pm Trafalgar Square
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stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Not when you don't want sex with that person. FFS.
I kind of think that was implied. I was referring to Edie's point that I didn't get either this rape is about power you hear a lot being its the primary motive rather than the method of acquiring sex.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
I seem to recall that the sexual gratification theory of rape ('raping' as a method to acquire sex) as being not only controversial at the time, but that it still regarded domination as a key factor in the motive.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
It would be interesting and rather horrifying I expect to find out what percentage of the female population has been raped/attempted raped. Certainly amongst my friends the ones who have not are in the minority.
Seems unlikely, but apparently not:
Really? Fucking hell. I know very few women who have unless you count forced bareback.
Biddlybee
making knots with sticks
One book, how many studies?
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
But it would have to be qualified 'domination' as in 'domination of women under 30 and over 18' as that seems to account for around 80% of proven rapes - last time I looked anyhoo.
That is also an age range, of course, when most women are at their most attractive, and fertile.
I'm not saying I believe it. I'm just saying that it is a theory, that may (or may not) explain some rapes. Just to be clear.
Like I said, it seems unlikely to me.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure Felson remains rather in a minority with that theory - amongst other criminologists and psychologists.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Can you explain the relevance of 'women are at their most attractive and fertile'?
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Read the link above.
I was chatting to a couple of girls who had been spiked at the weekend, and so have I except I was pinching drinks.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
It kinda comes across like you're trying to convince yourself that power isn't a major motive, Edie? 
Besides, 'if you really can't get any sex, and desperate for it' - I'm not sure that's true at all?
Besides, 'if you really can't get any sex, and desperate for it' - I'm not sure that's true at all?
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Ok I have... I don't find it particularly convincing tbh.
No, sorry, it was more thinking out loud. I don't think that, although maybe it's true for a very small number of cases. You do get a lot of people who never have ANY oppertunity for sex or intimacy. It's fucking sad really, the depth of human loneliness. And it does tend to be men, cos women can pull a million times more easy (although I dunno why really). It's like the myth of the male escort.It kinda comes across like you're trying to convince yourself that power isn't a major motive, Edie?
Besides, 'if you really can't get any sex, and desperate for it' - I'm not sure that's true at all?
Just to be totally clear: I do not think rape is EVER ok, no matter how lonely or frustrated you are.
Neither do I.
Biddlybee
making knots with sticks
Have you been drinking?Maybe the power bit could be incidental. Like if you just really can't get any sex, and your desperate for it. You might rape someone just to get sex, but not be gratified or enjoy the power or enjoy the violence.
Christ, that sounds well suspect
NoHave you been drinking?
I'm not making this clear, am I. It's not what I think. It's about trying to understand that argument. From reading the wiki.Shall I just... stop now?
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
my god. That is truly the most devastating and awful thing I have ever read here.
gavman
pj slumpy
Maybe the power bit could be incidental. Like if you just really can't get any sex, and your desperate for it. You might rape someone just to get sex, but not be gratified or enjoy the power or enjoy the violence.
Christ, that sounds well suspect
any description of rape motives is going to sound suspect. but i agree with you, the whole power and domination aspect is overplayed.
i feel this is because that endorses the feminist narrative of rape being about the oppression of women for power's own sake, rather than that domination being the inevitable part of forced sex, where the sex is the only motive.
when viewed this way the question of provocative dress can never arise. do i think women are to blame for sexual assaults because of what they wear?
of course not. it's 100% the fault of the man
would i let my daughter go out dressed just in her underwear?
not on your life
at the dance it would regularly kick off after sexual assaults, where a girl got groped on the dancefloor. it was our number one source of trouble after dealing, and would tend to happen in the daylight hours after we'd been running all night. now did that mean that the longer they were there, the more men wanted to oppress the women present to feel powerful?
or did it mean that after eight hours of being on drugs and dancing with scantily dressed girls they were so visually stimulated that they couldn't keep their hands to themselves?
we all know that male sexuality is different to female, and that men are much more aroused by visual stimulus, whereas for women other factors such as touch will heighten their arousal. speaking as someone who has suffered great periods of loneliness and sexual frustration, the urge to reach out and touch can be pretty overwhelming. i've never groped anyone, but i'm pretty well tied down, more so than any other bloke i know. my dad calls me a monk
so, knowing what can be going through a bloke's mind, understanding the level of stimulation a man can feel being surrounded by something he's supposed to admire but not touch, i tend to see scantily clad girls in the dance as being irresponsible troublemakers, and there's a 50:50 chance i'm going to have to intervene in a fight as a result of their desire to proclaim their sexuality.
and the next dance they tend to dress a bit less provocatively.
some of the people i've seen on the news representing slutwalk talk as though they are living in a vacumn, as though the undeniable absolute freedom to wear whatever you want is without any attendant responsibility for the reaction it causes. to me this is completely wrong headed.
in effect, girls showing loads of flesh like to provoke a response, but my argument is you can neither guarantee or control the response you will get.
i believe it is my basic human right to walk down the road smoking a big fat doobie, but prudence dictates otherwise
anyway, i know i will get roasted, but i speak as someone who has been on the front line in this one, taken and given digs just to be part of someone else's learning the truth about the big bad world.
to me, the basic feminist agenda can seem anti-male. yet why is it that they are so blind to how bad men really are? if you go out wearing skimpy clothes then you either have a naive view of the world, live in a security bubble or are a cage fighter in drag
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Consensual domination is an entirely different thing, surely? Rape by it's nature is non-consensual, and domination is imposed through violence or threat of violence.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
He does look a bit of a goer, to be fair.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yup. Most domination in consensual sex also has "cut-offs" to prevent harm (unless harm has been requested). Rape-domination has no such safeguard(s) against harm.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Power is always implicated though, it always has something to do with rape, so of course it's not just about power. It's about someone else exerting power (the means) to express their "anger", "sadism" or requirement for "sexual gratification".
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Controversial theory that wasn't borne out by much research in the following decade and a half. Most current forensic/criminal psychology as taught in the unis still holds to the power/domination theory, because it's got 40+ years of research evidence substantiating it.
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