Belgium and the Netherlands too, it's been starting to come up here from about a year or two ago.
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
Belgium and the Netherlands too, it's been starting to come up here from about a year or two ago.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
As far as "calling out" goes...you know some of us probably aren't seeing bigoted posts here right? We may have posters on ignore?
There is also, imo, a problem with "call out" culture. It's not the same as challenging and changing us it?
I'd also echo LynnDoyleCooper in that it's not confined to London. In my dull town with no scene to speak of and only a handful of activists it casts a shadow.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You should get out more
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I definitely should too tbh.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I'd rather stop in with a cup of tea, cake and a good book.
But it's cold outside. And there are people there.
To be honest these rows and the increasingly authoritarian methods used to enforce the current orthodoxy * are just a symptom of the general morubundity of the anarchist movement and it's retreat into a scene. No wonder the kids are out with Corbyn.
* Is there some kind of Kropotkins Law "The more ludicrous the proposition the more physical force required to impose it"?
* Is there some kind of Kropotkins Law "The more ludicrous the proposition the more physical force required to impose it"?
Besides, it was an explanatory and informative point. The organizers of the previous bookfair stated they were "baffled" of being accused of being fascists but there's nothing to be baffled about, it's entirely to be expected. The model "crackpottery + authoritarianism" happens to fit the observations very well, you can hardly blame me for noticing this. Well, I suppose you can blame me all you want, but if you want me to adopt a different model you'll have to show it to be a better fit.
Perhaps if this situation affected you more personally you might see things differently. But when people I've known for decades, people I considered solid comrades, are sharing batshit conspiracy theories on facebook or supporting and following those who seek to delegitimise trans lives entirely then you might feel this more acutely.
I don't know if this is aimed at me but if so .. had it occurred to you that most trans people would rather not have endless arguments about whether trans women are really women or trans people in sports on thread after thread after thread. And as such not engaging with fly by night posters who have only turned up to push a transphobic agenda is one way of trying to mitigate that. There is a thread on here hundreds of pages long where all these things have been discussed, and whilst there are issues concerning how the bookfair manages this situation then perhaps the broader aspects of the discussion could take place on there.
Honestly Rhyddical I know you're trying to help, but its really not a lot of fun to be constantly argued over or seen as a source of controversy at every possible chance. You've stated your policies, discuss those and fine tune them by all means, but as bookfair organisers, rather than individuals, you really should be looking to rise above the endless 'debate' over trans lives and doing what you can to take the heat off it. Because otherwise the bookfair will remain all about trans issues, and that's not a bookfair many trans people will feel comfortable attending.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
I'd be interested in knowing more if you have any further info? (Tho I did mean the US, South America, Europe Asia and even Africa, based on feedback from international comrades)
Re, the issue aroudn the UK
I guess we just exist around differance bubbles of Anarchists as It's certainly never a core issue in any Anarchist network I know.
To be clear here... I'm saying actual Transphobic Anarchists.... not People (I assume like yourself, not trying to misrepresent or anything honestly x) who occupy some hinterland, willing to hear both sides and who have a more complex position, one which is routed in ensuring that neither "side" is oppressed and trying to bridge these differant perspectives... It's sad that folk with this "middle position" (for sake of not rambling on) often get placed in the Bigot/Terf/Enemy etc catagory out of hand... It can be a very problematic minefield that one, and one, we have been skirting through on the thread.
I'm an not saying that those difficult discussions don't exist across the country/internationally.
Rather people who say things like "men who cut their cock off arn't women" and "trans people are just mentally ill", probably down to "women n etc" which is commonly recognised as a dogwhistle (overt or otherwise) of those harder positions.... these arn't really found in Anarchist communities outside of London (from my experiances), where as I have had the displeaure of finding it both online and indeed in London.
The issue with not allowing stalls from bigots, isn't to stymie those with concerns but those who are bigotted. Transphobic groups want to try and project that the response to these two "groupings" is the same, and that it's "anti-woman" but this simply isn't true, sure there are more militant TRA's and Cisphobic people but tbh their position comes from one of oppression and of being abused systematically by the state of the wider community, so I have more time for understanding it, even if it can be quite ugly.
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Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
You are right.
I'm easily baited. This issue is a deeply personal one and well, fuck, I do like to correct people who are wrong on the internet.
I keep saying "this is the last I'll bite" and then getting dragged into it, but yeah. honestly. fingers crossed, I shant talk any more of the transphobia issue x ;p
Athos
Well-Known Member
Lol. That's EXACTLY what you've done!
Certainly no anarchists here are arguing for those positions.
You need to get a refund on that crystal ball as it’s giving you incorrect readings.
Me replying to a comment about me previously. Surely this is allowable or is there some statue of limitations on it?
Treacle Toes
Time
Spring? I'm back kind of thing.
Not for long, you’ll be pleased to learn. Quickly reminded how much this place is a hotbed of wannabe coppers.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Just wondered if something had happened elsewhere that I'd missed. That's all.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
The ex-cop and that court case over the tweets has been in the media recently, and it's been coming up in the Labour leadership race a bit too.
At this stage perhaps all we can do is congratulate the anarchist movement for being ahead of the game in getting torn to bits by this toxic pile of shit.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Wow are we really rezzin this dead thread?
Helen Steel is a transphobe who even ignoring the situation which occoured at the 2017 Bookfair has a repeatedly shared transphobic, bigoted content on her twitter account and other places. this includes a thread on our twitter where she not only posted transphobic content but encouraged a vast array of deeply abusive and overtly hostile tweets from her followers of the "trans women are rapists and perverts // men who chopped their cock off" variety. Regardless of your personal position re; Anarchist events having "rules", any sane person can see why bigots are not welcome at spaces that are about organising against bigots. This includes otherwise sound activists who have done lots to fight big corps and work for womens rights.
This goes for all the pricks who are currently so invested in advocating the idea that providing medical support for trans people is a eugenics campaign against the gay community.
Bigots have no place in the Anarchist scene and are not welcome at events that we organise.
Aside from that, I'm not being baited again, you do you U75 x
What do the Quakers and Catholic Workerd have to do with that?
If you are concerned that we are not allowed organisations whose faith is part of their politics then I'd ask Jewdas who have a stall.
Far as I'm aware the Quakers would be more than welcome to attend and I have no idea who the Catholic Workers but unless they are some Stalinist front I'm sure they are welcome too.
Any actual questions about the Bookfair and I'll get back to you.
Helen Steel is a transphobe who even ignoring the situation which occoured at the 2017 Bookfair has a repeatedly shared transphobic, bigoted content on her twitter account and other places. this includes a thread on our twitter where she not only posted transphobic content but encouraged a vast array of deeply abusive and overtly hostile tweets from her followers of the "trans women are rapists and perverts // men who chopped their cock off" variety. Regardless of your personal position re; Anarchist events having "rules", any sane person can see why bigots are not welcome at spaces that are about organising against bigots. This includes otherwise sound activists who have done lots to fight big corps and work for womens rights.
This goes for all the pricks who are currently so invested in advocating the idea that providing medical support for trans people is a eugenics campaign against the gay community.
Bigots have no place in the Anarchist scene and are not welcome at events that we organise.
Aside from that, I'm not being baited again, you do you U75 x
What do the Quakers and Catholic Workerd have to do with that?
If you are concerned that we are not allowed organisations whose faith is part of their politics then I'd ask Jewdas who have a stall.
Far as I'm aware the Quakers would be more than welcome to attend and I have no idea who the Catholic Workers but unless they are some Stalinist front I'm sure they are welcome too.
Any actual questions about the Bookfair and I'll get back to you.
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Here we go again. The anarchist ‘movement’ once more comes across as intolerant and unwelcoming. Believe me, I don’t want to get involved with this crap any more than most people (yeah, I know, why don’t you shut up then?), but your intemperate statements cannot go unchallenged every time you make them. If Helen Steel is transphobic then give us an example. You can’t expect her to monitor all the responses from her twitter followers, nor comment on everything that she re-posts.
I quite agree that unsympathetic language towards trans people is unhelpful, but that comes with the territory of social media. It is not the sole property of gender critical feminists. Indeed some trans activists have been known to get involved in a similar way. Don’t forget that most CG and trans activists aren’t anarchists anyway.
But just labelling people you don’t agree with as bigots and pricks, and seeking to silence them in this way - it doesn’t help you make your case well.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Sadly, Steel has engaged in and regurgitated some pretty unpleasant and at times bordering on conspiraloonery stuff over the last few years (I wrote about some of my thoughts on this thread previously), and as someone who once had respect for and showed solidarity with her, and despite trying to stay away from much of this debacle, it becomes very difficult to remain objective and let it go. This whole situation has bought out some of the most selective-memory, two-faced, disingenuous, shit I've ever seen, and disappointingly even on urban.
Anyway, hope to see some of you at Anarchist bookfair later in the year, and also Radical bookfair before then. I'm out.
Anyway, hope to see some of you at Anarchist bookfair later in the year, and also Radical bookfair before then. I'm out.
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Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Multiple examples have already been posted in this very thread. I find it very hard to believe, given how active you are on this subject, that you haven't ever been provided them before and tbh it's exactly that kind of deliberate ignoring of blatant realities and previous answers, which I've seen over and over again from "gender critical" people, which has made this entire conversation so impossible.
Fact is you know perfectly well she's on the hard end of anti-trans campaigning, you'd have to be blind not to see it. This is about wearing people down until you have the floor to yourself, not having a genuine conversation. First we do the argument, then everything dies down for a couple of weeks and then lo and behold, the same "reasonable" questions that had previously been answered get asked again (usually on a different thread, but apparently not always), until people throw their hands up and stop bothering to engage/be polite, at which point you shout about censorship and silencing and "unwelcoming" atmospheres. It's utterly tedious.
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Tedious is the word. The trouble is that we don’t all seem to have the same understanding of the realities of the world. That’s a problem which no one has the time or patience to deal with. This has all started again because of Rhydiccal banging on about transphobes and picks, again. Censoring and silencing relates to who is or is not to be allowed at the
Bookfair. There is a fault line on this issue in all sorts of political groups and movements. You don’t have all the answers. You keep seeing the same questions because your answers don’t convince an awful lot of people. I’ll keep shtum if everyone else does.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Helen saying the trans rights movement is funded by George Soros isn't just not having the same understanding of the world, it's fitting the world around a viewpoint that trans people are the enemy. Please acknowledge that first before moving on to casting yet more aspersions.
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