London Anarchist bookfair 2020

[Pickman's model]

I have:



Assuming that I am some random interested person who comes to the bookfair to learn about anarchism, would I be correct to conclude that one of anarchism's principles is not to challenge authority? You know, given your insistence of grilling me about how to wield such authority - even though I don't actually wield it nor have even expressed interest in doing so - whereas you do not do so with the people actually wielding such authority - and seemingly enjoying to do so without bounds.

you said what you'd do. You haven't said *how* you'd do it. Do read the question.

 

[Athos]

you said what you'd do. You haven't said *how* you'd do it. Do read the question.

What would you do, and how?

 

[andysays]

You're always free to post your version of events and answer yourself the question of what you would've done with the HS thing. Otherwise I'm giving content-free handwaves as much consideration as they deserve, which is none.

I don't need to post my "version" of events to point out that your "version" is dishonest, nor do I need to answer the question of what I would've done were I one of the organisers at a previous Bookfair.

And I'm sure readers of this thread can make their own minds up about how much consideration your posts deserve without any prompting from me.

 

[Larry Noppius]

I don't need to post my "version" of events to point out that your "version" is dishonest, nor do I need to answer the question of what I would've done were I one of the organisers at a previous Bookfair.

True, you are under no requirement to support your assertions, and I am under no requirement to give them any consideration.

And I'm sure readers of this thread can make their own minds up about how much consideration your posts deserve without any prompting from me.

Which must be why you chose to do some "prompting" anyway.

 

[nyxx]

Is there an actual point to these hypotheticals or are you just wasting my time?



.

That’s rich coming from this profile.

 

[Rhyddical]

I think I'm missing out on a fair bit of the thread with someone I've got on ignore tbh but yeah...

If there is a need to ask people to leave - for a variety of reasons - it will primarily be handled in a civl and courteous manner by the volunteers and proffesionals who will be there as general security.

To be quick frank, I think a pro-active response and policvy of intervention from the B2020 will keep drama from being a thing. I think some of the issues of the past we're do to a stand back policy where the space was left to organise itself and respond mostly however it wishes. There is a solid arguement that that is more true to Anarchism and I've a lot of time for it, We've taken a slightly more formal structure sure but it's not going to be anything heavy handed or aggy.

There isn't a list of "groups to expel"... there is a list of groups we'd like to invite. We're working from a positive perpective not a negative one ;p The venue will be for stallholders... anyone who doesn't have a stall is actively encouraged to set up a fringe event or join RCG outside. Anyone is welcome to request a stall when the revised website goes live in early 2020 and we'll discuss all possible stallholders equally across our fair broad spectrum of organiser background... The things we'll be focusing on are Are they Anarchists, Anarachistic in nature, Is there a history of supporting dodge authoritarian regimes/ right wing christians etc, have there been incidents of meaningful distruption before,are they racists bigots etc etc have they ever called the cops on comrades that kind of thing.

This is all rather informal as a working model (we are Anarchists after all) but is pretty much standard for every event ever. LABC would of had a similar policy/method of not inviting trash and they most certainly never hosted any of the bigotted groups that exist... nothing much has changed there.

 

[Red Sky]

Professionals?

I think I'm missing out on a fair bit of the thread with someone I've got on ignore tbh but yeah...

If there is a need to ask people to leave - for a variety of reasons - it will primarily be handled in a civl and courteous manner by the volunteers and proffesionals who will be there as general security.

To be quick frank, I think a pro-active response and policvy of intervention from the B2020 will keep drama from being a thing. I think some of the issues of the past we're do to a stand back policy where the space was left to organise itself and respond mostly however it wishes. There is a solid arguement that that is more true to Anarchism and I've a lot of time for it, We've taken a slightly more formal structure sure but it's not going to be anything heavy handed or aggy.

There isn't a list of "groups to expel"... there is a list of groups we'd like to invite. We're working from a positive perpective not a negative one ;p The venue will be for stallholders... anyone who doesn't have a stall is actively encouraged to set up a fringe event or join RCG outside. Anyone is welcome to request a stall when the revised website goes live in early 2020 and we'll discuss all possible stallholders equally across our fair broad spectrum of organiser background... The things we'll be focusing on are Are they Anarchists, Anarachistic in nature, Is there a history of supporting dodge authoritarian regimes/ right wing christians etc, have there been incidents of meaningful distruption before,are they racists bigots etc etc have they ever called the cops on comrades that kind of thing.

This is all rather informal as a working model (we are Anarchists after all) but is pretty much standard for every event ever. LABC would of had a similar policy/method of not inviting trash and they most certainly never hosted any of the bigotted groups that exist... nothing much has changed there.

 

[LDC]

Professionals?

One of the added dramas at the Manchester Bookfair last year with people being removed was made worse by someone who worked for the Partizan venue as SIA badged door staff and also knew both the people they were throwing out and other Bookfair attendees through living in the same area and having been peripherally involved in some activist politics.

During the whole mess he behaved in a totally unhinged way, losing any sense of detachment and calm professional attitude, including going on and on about being 'professional badged door staff' and then hiding his SIA badge when people tried to look at it (justified hilariously by saying "The police do it, why can't I?") screaming at various people pretty much randomly, and then twisting the arm of Helen Steel behind her back after grabbing her when she was sitting down and talking to someone else.

Hopefully any 'professionals' won't be like him the prick.

 

[Red Sky]

One of the added dramas at the Manchester Bookfair last year with people being removed was someone who worked for the Partizan venue as SIA badged door staff and also knew both the people they were throwing out and other Bookfair attendees through living in the same area and having been peripherally involved in some activist politics.

During the whole mess he behaved in a totally unhinged way, losing any sense of detachment and calm professional attitude, including going on and on about being 'professional badged door staff' and then hiding his SIA badge when people tried to look at it (justified hilariously by saying "The police do it, why can't I?") screaming at various people pretty much randomly, and then twisting the arm of Helen Steel behind her back after grabbing her when she was sitting down and talking to someone else.

Hopefully any 'professionals' won't be like him the prick.

Well nothing says "Anarchy" quite as much as uniformed custodians of public order. Move along now, ladies and gents, nothing to see here.

 

[LDC]

I'm not against people working at Bookfairs as bar staff/door staff/whatever if it's needed, often it's a stipulation of the venue to have door staff somewhere.

I am against people behaving like totals cunts though, paid or not.

 

[Rhyddical]

I was stood there watching the events you describe. They did not occour how you say at all. He told them what was going to happen (IE they would be lifted and carried out the back) and requested that they leave the venue and when they refused after a 20/30 minutes sit down protext they were lifted out and left outside. I don't believe there was any intention for HS to have their arm twisted, but that is a possibility when you refuse to respect the space and wish to stage a wee protest which you know means people have told you they are going to lift you out of a venue (one you have shown nothing but discontempt for)

Several people at the venue were really upset that she was there and were worried about the personal security (given some of the doxxing, police calling and hostility that has occoured in the past, quite understandably)

I understand out perspectives differ, so not really interested in going over it eternally other than to say this isn't a policy aimed at any of the transphobic crowd that caused rucus last time, tbh there are other bits of hubbub and barny that are a fair bit that are more concerning (namely fashy type and statists kicking off who have much less of to air of civility GC folk try to present.)

Why do you have this belief that Anarchist should be tolerant of bigotted people having such protests in their spaces showiong absolutely no respect or consideration for others? Why does anyone think we're making an event for everyone and their mam?.. Bookfair 2020 is a distinctly Anarchist event which is trans inclusive, etc etc and if that it's someones politics, and they can't respect the space they shouldn't come. If you want a liberal coffee and tea where everyone is welcome to chat whatever crap they want, then go to that event. Anarchist Bookfairs rarely feel the need to entertain such people.

Anarchists shouldn't be passive or "tolerant", being willing to step up and keep our communities safe.

re;SIA.
The venue requires badged people for their license.
Our primary security will be badged comrades (mostly women) who work in the sector.

Bookfairs generally have a degree of stewarding, more to help folk find their way about and such.
Given the history of bookfair and the tacit threats we've had it would seem only sensible to have proffessionally minded comrades present to deal with a variety of sitations, from political drama to slips and trips.
Aside from the Venue SIA, we're not paying people (thus far) and there will hopefully be a distinctly lack of "total cunts" with the name of the day being sorting things out civily and some conflict management training and the like given for stewards.

We've gone over both of these points earlier in the discussion and I'm sure you've no interest in the magic round about either so let's not get bogged down on this eh?

 

[Serge Forward]

I always thought Anarchist Bookfairs were a 'showcase' of the anarchist scene with the wider population invited (fash etc excluded obviously). Is it just for anarchists now?

 

[LDC]

I always thought Anarchist Bookfairs were a 'showcase' of the anarchist scene with the wider population invited (fash etc excluded obviously). Is it just for anarchists now?

Only good anarchists though. Not bad anarchists.

 

[Rhyddical]

Is it just for anarchists now?

It is an Anarchist bookfair.
It's so "not just for Anarchists" that 5 pages back we're being told we're not an Anarchist bookfair.

For us, it is less a "showcase" and more a point of sharing information and developing the working class resistence to capitalism and the state etc , from Anarchist organisationa nd fellow travellers alike.

This doesn't mean that it's a platform for any or everyone.

Who are the bad Anarchists?

Who would put absolutes on people such as good/bad... thats a bit bullshit and you know it.
I'm not sure any of the people who would notably be refused entry actually call themselves Anarchist? ... of the three people I can think of right now who defiantly won't get through the door only one would call themselves a Anarchist and they are misogenist and a threat to women... the other two have told me they arn't Anarchists, one being a stalinist and the other a politically ambigous environmentalist.

You'll also find no welcome for Anarcho-Capitalists, Anarcho-Empiralists, Anarcho-Eco Facists or whatever weird fucking pockets of groups exist.

If you want such a bookfair, where everyone is welcome, but all means arrange one or even easier arrange fringe event for Bookfair 2020 thats an open foroum.

To provide a wellcoming, inclusive and safe environmental we won't be this.

 

[Red Sky]

only one would call themselves a Anarchist and they are misogenist and a threat to women...

Helen S?

 

[Serge Forward]

It is an Anarchist bookfair.
It's so "not just for Anarchists" that 5 pages back we're being told we're not an Anarchist bookfair.

For us, it is less a "showcase" and more a point of sharing information and developing the working class resistence to capitalism and the state etc , from Anarchist organisationa nd fellow travellers alike.

This doesn't mean that it's a platform for any or everyone.

Who are the bad Anarchists?

Who would put absolutes on people such as good/bad... thats a bit bullshit and you know it.
I'm not sure any of the people who would notably be refused entry actually call themselves Anarchist? ... of the three people I can think of right now who defiantly won't get through the door only one would call themselves a Anarchist and they are misogenist and a threat to women... the other two have told me they arn't Anarchists, one being a stalinist and the other a politically ambigous environmentalist.

You'll also find no welcome for Anarcho-Capitalists, Anarcho-Empiralists, Anarcho-Eco Facists or whatever weird fucking pockets of groups exist.

If you want such a bookfair, where everyone is welcome, but all means arrange one or even easier arrange fringe event for Bookfair 2020 thats an open foroum.

To provide a wellcoming, inclusive and safe environmental we won't be this.

Your bookfair, your rules (yours and the other people putting it on, that is). And that seems fair enough to me. If I like the look of it nearer the date, I'll probably turn up. If I don't, I wont. Obviously, this all assumes I won't be persona non grata on the day anyway

 

[Rhyddical]

Yeah I guess at the end of the day it is "our party", but we want everyone to make themselves at home... just don't break any vases.

I think through the next year and then ahead into 2021, we'll be developing out "ruleset" so that it is minimal and workable and hopefully find solution to the issues other Bookfairs have faced and learn from their improvements.

In that we have a near open hand for folk to get involved and be part of that rule making and like I say, if folk wanted something more broad strokes they really might want to considor organising periphery events, I'm sure there would be interest and if at the end of the day that is what people are peitioning to do ie "be heard" that seems a better way to me that have a brief act of disruption whatever the basis of the politics (stalinism, Anti vaxxers, freemandims whatever)

 

[Rhyddical]

Helen S?

No not Helen,tho I suspect you might think that as others have used such language? HS, I wouldn't know, I was told she's not a self described Anarchist but we've only ever spoke briefly before the past few years drama and since then the last conversation we had she posted the whole Women (n) stuff, which is a weaponised bit of transphobic prop to undermine women who are trans. Which was sad, because that goes beyond "fighting for the right of women to speak" to overtly parroting the vote of some very very nasty bigots who don't even masking their venom with symantics and reasonability. HS never comments or called out any of the more overt bigotry, straight up nasty shit that was on the thread, which made me quite sad to be honest as It was my understanding that she had found herself in a more approachable camp that did not condone or tolerate Transphobia and felt that label was unfair when placed on them... however this (and other things) sort of undermined that alas.

 

[Red Sky]

No not Helen,tho I suspect you might think that as others have used such language? HS, I wouldn't know, I was told she's not a self proscribed Anarchist but we've only ever spoke briefly before the past few years drama and since then the last conversation we had she posted the whole Women (n) stuff, which is a weaponised bit of transphobic prop to undermine women who are trans. Which was sad, because that goes beyond "fighting for the right of women to speak" to overtly parroting the vote of some very very nasty bigots who don't even masking their venom with symantics and reasonability. HS never comments or called out any of the more overt bigotry, straight up nasty shit that was on the thread, which made me quite sad to be honest as It was my understanding that she had found herself in a more approachable camp that did not condone or tolerate Transphobia and felt that label was unfair when placed on them... however this (and other things) sort of undermined that alas.

There's not many anarchists who are self proscribed, although I suspect this bookfair will produce a few.

 

[Larry Noppius]

I think I'm missing out on a fair bit of the thread with someone I've got on ignore tbh but yeah...

"If I stick my fingers in my ears and go la la la can't hear you then the question goes away." And no amount of calling it "hypothetical" or "abstract" or "dishonest and disingenuous" stops it from being a concrete and quite relevant question, as relayed by the organizers of the previous bookfair:

The woman who was later mobbed by up to about 30 people did not hand out the leaflets or have anything to do with their production or distribution – she simply said that they had the right to distribute them. For expressing this view, she was mobbed by a crowd of people some of whom, had we not stepped in, appeared bent on physically attacking her. We and other stall holders stepped in to prevent this from happening. If any individual within our movement is threatened with physical assault at the Bookfair we always try to do what we can to protect that person, and have done so (sadly too often) at previous Bookfairs over a number of different strongly felt issues, regardless of whether we personally share their views.

We have been accused of “protecting a fascist” and of being transphobic ourselves. All of us in the collective have physically confronted fascists on the streets, at meetings and in print, and we are baffled and upset by these accusations. Accusing a person of being a fascist because you don’t like their views is dishonest and dangerous. We are not going to apologise for protecting someone being mobbed by a group of up to about 30 people, and, along with others, preventing an ugly situation from deteriorating further.

 

[Larry Noppius]

the last conversation we had she posted the whole Women (n) stuff, which is a weaponised bit of transphobic prop to undermine women who are trans.

You sure it's not just one of the myriad ways of pointing out you're a crackpot? You know, failing number 14 on the list, the need to properly define the terms used in your assertions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Must have missed my sarcastic grin. I don't belong to any particular movement.

The fact is tho, anarchism seems to me (and others like me- ) to be the most unpleasant of the lot. And if you think it's a case of "disengenouousness", then that's gonna be a problem of your movement, eh.

I know what my and others thoughts are. Up to you to acknowledge them or dismiss them. Not my problem, really.

I think that anarchism itself can't really be classified as a movement - it's too diffuse for that, and many anarchists don't agree with the anarchist orgs such as SolFed and Anarchist Federation, especially where IdPol is concerned. Although Ryddical is - for whatever reason - trying to characterise this as some sort of dislike of black and/or trans anarchists, it's not. It's a dislike of a particular analysis that has little to say about class, except as an identity to be assumed and worn.

There ARE some copper-bottomed unpleasant tossers on "the scene", though. I suppose that if I were writing a novel that was based around the scene, there'd be a fair share of middle-aged, grumpy, antisocial gits as characters.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They're not similar circumstances. For a start, the Labour party is being deliberately hammered by the press over anti-Semitism while for transphobia it's the other way round, with pro-trans groups like Mermaids and Stonewall regularly being monstered.

Also if this turns into another fucking "I have the right to say X about trans people and not be told off" debate I'm gonna be off again for a while I think, it's so utterly tedious.

To be fair, rational analysis of Stonewall's output during the Hunt era shows that IF they're being monstered, it's because the LGB folk feel that Stonewall are all about the T nowadays.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It might seem a bit late in the day but it’s worth asking “what is the point of an anarchist book fair?” There’s quite a few answers. Help anarchists meet up with old comrades. Meet new ones. Publicise campaigns and organisations. Provide funding for bookshops and publishers. Have a good and interesting time encountering new and ideas etc. Above all to try and spread the word to all and sundry. Other anarchists, fellow travellers, radicals of all description. Plus interested punters off the street with little knowledge of anarchism. But this insistence in conformity to an ideological position on a side-issue on which there is not just a disagreement but a gaping chasm between the two sides does nobody any good. Rhyddical’s slagging off of those who disagree as bigots and transphobes is ignorant and offensive to very many comrades whose viewpoints are far from bigoted. It risks further entrenching division and scaring off many on the left, particularly feminists and particularly women.

What's the point of an anarchist bookfair? It allows me to put faces to the names on my list.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Noms? Fucking NOMS?

FFS, enough about the trans debate, anyone using that expression at the Bookfair should be fucking beaten to death with a heavy dictionary.

I can lend you my double volume Polish/English. Weighs about 8kg per volume.

Anyway, it could have been worse. He could have said "the yum-yums".

 

[Rob Ray]

To be fair, rational analysis of Stonewall's output during the Hunt era shows that IF they're being monstered, it's because the LGB folk feel that Stonewall are all about the T nowadays.

Actually I was referring to reporters and pundits for the likes of the Times, Daily Mail and Express running regular hit pieces on them directly linked to their support for trans people. Generally speaking the LGBT press has been very pro Stonewall afaik, the only "LGB" group going after them is the relatively recent LGB Alliance, the purpose of which is pretty clear from the title. It's also rather unsurprising that Stonewall has been talking more about trans people really, as they're the ones currently on the frontline of a very nasty reactionary backlash which it's quite clear won't stop at the T if allowed to run its course.

Tbh that's the thing I find most baffling about the minority of LGB people who go in for trans-bashing - look a little way beyond your own nose and it's not hard to see who's next in line for a beating once reactionaries get the bit between their teeth. You don't even have to be a decent person to be into self-preservation.

 

[smokedout]

To be fair, rational analysis of Stonewall's output during the Hunt era shows that IF they're being monstered, it's because the LGB folk feel that Stonewall are all about the T nowadays.

It's vital to protect the true gays from the trans and queer upstarts. Also identity politics is bad and nothing to do with my politics.

 

[Rhyddical]

With the sudden return of a few rather ugly souled people it's hard to keep a good track of this thread without clicking the show hidden content.

The moment I did I regretted it.

yuck.

Here for any actual questions about Bookfair ;p

 

[ViolentPanda]

Actually I was referring to reporters and pundits for the likes of the Times, Daily Mail and Express running regular hit pieces on them directly linked to their support for trans people. Generally speaking the LGBT press has been very pro Stonewall afaik, the only "LGB" group going after them is the relatively recent LGB Alliance, the purpose of which is pretty clear from the title. It's also rather unsurprising that Stonewall has been talking more about trans people really, as they're the ones currently on the frontline of a very nasty reactionary backlash which it's quite clear won't stop at the T if allowed to run its course.

Tbh that's the thing I find most baffling about the minority of LGB people who go in for trans-bashing - look a little way beyond your own nose and it's not hard to see who's next in line for a beating once reactionaries get the bit between their teeth. You don't even have to be a decent person to be into self-preservation.

I said "folk", not "group".

 

[ViolentPanda]

With the sudden return of a few rather ugly souled people it's hard to keep a good track of this thread without clicking the show hidden content.

The moment I did I regretted it.

yuck.

Here for any actual questions about Bookfair ;p

If you're going to name-call, have the courage to do so directly.