ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Don't put words in my mouth, there's a good fuckwit.
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
Don't put words in my mouth, there's a good fuckwit.
Your charade is ludicrous, no wonder you have to use formally structured and organized professional goons (with badges and all) to violently (twisting arms etc) expel anyone who dares to point out you're a crackpot who doesn't have a clue what you're talking about (which seems to be the reason for HS being persona non grata, that in some discussion she pointed out that you weren't defining the terms used in your various assertions). Anyway, if I want to see authoritarian cults in action I can do this much closer to home rather than going all the way to London to your "anarchist" bookfair.
And yes, indeed, failing to address the substance of points but merely putting on an ad-hom about how your critics are "ugly souled people" etc is yet another tell-tale sign of crackpottery. One could seriously play crackpot bingo with you.
Name-calling? You mean calling him - demonstrably correctly I may add - a crackpot? Ah yes, that was one of those other grounds for expulsion, "contempt" for authority. Nah, the term crackpot isn't all that bad, it's more descriptive of a particular type of reasoning than necessarily a value-judgement. Indeed, John Baez, the person who made up the Crackpot Index is quite emphatic to crackpots. And let's be honest, anarchist bookfairs have always been crank magnets, I don't particularly have a problem with that. It's the authority usurped to enforce adherence to particular assertions I have a problem with, combined with said authority being usurped by someone whose track record on this very thread alone clearly shows him to be pretty much the least trustworthy person to wield it. I mean, would I get my arm twisted and get thrown out by the Units for the Reinstatement of Order (can we call them MAT?) if I said something like "No there is no solid evidence of extra-terrestrial life, that grainy video of the purported alien autopsy is obviously fake"? Who the hell knows? Seems perfectly possible, all we get is a well-thought out description of the apparatus of power (badges, professionals, formal structure) but when it comes to the limits or basis of such power we simply get meaningless vagueries like "just don't break any vases." In practice, in as much as it can be determined, it seems to boil down to "don't point out I'm a crackpot or you'll get into trouble."
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
somehow the cranks never do
Ah that must be an example of bringing something to the table that is more than just name-calling. No idea why you think I should care about my presence not being missed by some group. I mean, I don't particularly care that my presence wouldn't be missed in a scientology meeting either.
I shall continue to post what and when I will, but if it bothers you so much you are of course free and welcome to use the ignore function.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Sadly the ignore function doesn't prevent you from dribbling bile everywhere, I'd rather just be frank that your approach is unpleasant, your interventions aren't going anywhere and your efforts on this thread are thus pointless at best. So why no do yourself a favour (even if the howwible people who want to talk about actual bookfairs in a vaguely constructive way benefit as well).
Sucks to be you I guess. Funny how it's not just enough for you to decide not to want to see my "bile" everywhere, ie use the ignore function, but find it necessary to decide for everyone else as well. After all, the ignore function isn't limited to you, anyone who agrees with you on that can decide to use it for themselves as well. But we wouldn't want that, right, people thinking and deciding for themselves...
Yes you've already told me as much with the "your presence won't be missed" but I still have no idea why you keep insisting that I should care about your thoughts on such. Is it really so impossible for you to even imagine that there could, perhaps, be at least one person who doesn't fall all over themselves to care about every random thought that pops into your head?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
reckon sooner or later editor or FridgeMagnet will decide for everyone whether to continue to host your drivel.
Then perhaps don't put words in the mouths of an entire community, most of whom do not think what you claim.
Anyway on this thread we're discussing the practicalities of managing an event to promote radical working class politics at a time when the movement is embroiled in a deep split. If you want to moan about the boss of a liberal charity appearing to prioritise one identity over others then I don't know, perhaps Goldsmith's has a message board.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Lol. Goldsmiths students are 'managing' this event.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Whilst I'm not sure Larry Noppius has done themself any favours with how they've gone about it, in fairness I suspect that's partly down to frustration at Rhyddical's failure to even acknowledge the legitimate issues Larry has raised. If you appoint yourself to a position of power, then decline to be accountable, that's going to put noses out of joint in any setting, never mind in anarchist circles!
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It should have done me neither any favours nor disfavours, the validity of an argument is independent of how well the person making it conforms to some arbitrary set of social norms and codes you've chosen to apply.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
That would be true if your "arguments" had validity and were aimed at people who might be interested in them. Instead however they consist of poisonous word salads thrown at people who them simply find them tedious and mildly disruptive. You don't get listened to, and we get mildly annoyed. The whole thing is utterly pointless.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Maybe. But that's not how human interaction typically works.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
I don't think it's a deep split at all.
Given that there isn't a single Anarchist organisation or network that will express solidarity with WPUK or any of that lot.
At Manchester Bookfair, everyone handed read it, pulled a funny face and gave their leaflet back... and laughed when they left too. Coz there isn't a split and no one wants to entertain bigots. At best people are being polite.
Maybe a few years ago, the Anarchist Scene was a little less unsure about the whole issue but now I think everyone it quite aware about the players and organisations and we've all seen the truly horrific shit they have said and tolerated to be said in their spaces.
Don't agree, by all means set up outside or near bookfair, let's see how many Anarchists would entertain the ideas presented. Seriously, not as an organiser of Bookfair but a comrade here... If you TRULY think that this is actually a split in Anarchism and Anarchists want to hear or agree with this, instead of having a 20 minute barny at Bookfair 2020, those thinking to come would do much better to organise something propor and be there for the day... if SO MANY Anarchists actually support your position you'll have a great day I'm sure!
Personally I don't think a single Anarchist would entertain this deeply bigotted positions even if a dogwhistle or symatical arguement confuses the issue for while.
Given that there isn't a single Anarchist organisation or network that will express solidarity with WPUK or any of that lot.
At Manchester Bookfair, everyone handed read it, pulled a funny face and gave their leaflet back... and laughed when they left too. Coz there isn't a split and no one wants to entertain bigots. At best people are being polite.
Maybe a few years ago, the Anarchist Scene was a little less unsure about the whole issue but now I think everyone it quite aware about the players and organisations and we've all seen the truly horrific shit they have said and tolerated to be said in their spaces.
Don't agree, by all means set up outside or near bookfair, let's see how many Anarchists would entertain the ideas presented. Seriously, not as an organiser of Bookfair but a comrade here... If you TRULY think that this is actually a split in Anarchism and Anarchists want to hear or agree with this, instead of having a 20 minute barny at Bookfair 2020, those thinking to come would do much better to organise something propor and be there for the day... if SO MANY Anarchists actually support your position you'll have a great day I'm sure!
Personally I don't think a single Anarchist would entertain this deeply bigotted positions even if a dogwhistle or symatical arguement confuses the issue for while.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I don't know if you're wilfully misrepresenting things or something else is going on, but nobody is talking about 'solidarity' or not with WPUK as being any kind of split.
It's about a much more complex mix of views on what makes a women, how that might differ from being a trans-woman, and how to reconcile the conflict or potential conflict between those things in some specific small areas. And in that there is a massive split in the anarchist scene, to pretend it's all roses and common agreement is wrong, with this thread (and others on here) being exhibit A to prove it.
Identifying a split, which exists whether you like it or not and is a reason I no longer feel that comfortable around some people I've known and worked with for 20 years, does not mean the movement is split down the middle. Most political splits involve a highly vocal minority breaking away. Neither does it mean that I give equal weight to the arguments of both sides.
You need to sharpen up btw. And not make assumptions.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Well, there you go. If you don’t agree you are a bigot. Not only that, not one single anarchist could possibly agree with your ideas because if you did, well they couldn’t be an anarchist, after all. Talk about a complete bollocks argument.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
...and the split isn't just the conflict over those pretty specific issues but there may well be a more general cultural erosion over class, identity "calling out" and so on (idpol as it's crudely short-handed).
Athos
Well-Known Member
And the exercise of power over other anarchists by self-appointed bosses.
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Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
........... so not a "deep split" in the movement at all.... check.
More some people on a thread and some people who don't call themselves Anarchists thinking that a specifically anti bigotry Anarchist space is the best place to shout about it....to her, show that they arn't bigotted against people they refuse to acknowledge the existance off. Kewl.
Should really add as well that this really only exists in the mileu of London. I've not met any Anarchists either in the UK that report such a rife problem as real world events. Comrades round the world think we're barmy too and this literally doesn't exist as a proble in the Anarchist scene anywhere else.
If it amounts as a split I'd say "whether Anarchists vote" or "are dreads ok" are much bigger ones.
It worries me that you talk of reconciliation but havn't once called out some of the more transphobic and dogwhistle shit here about "trans women in sportz" and "trans arn't women" etc etc that so very clearly has others such commenting back. I think even if you are on the other side of the coin from me in this discussion "good faith" would be shown by tempering the nasty language used by people you may or may not agree with...
Idpol is indeed a problem and a lot of people slip into it on near every factor... That shouldn't an excuse not to call of bigotry and labelling things Idpol as a mask for bigotry is pretty shitty too... It's happened a little on this thread and it's sure as shit happens across social media and you know...the world. Acknowledgeing the rights of, and the specific issues felt by the trans community is not IDPol. It's solidarity.
The irony here is that feminists had to fight for their place in the movement facing the same shit, and even now we work against misogyny in the movement.
More some people on a thread and some people who don't call themselves Anarchists thinking that a specifically anti bigotry Anarchist space is the best place to shout about it....to her, show that they arn't bigotted against people they refuse to acknowledge the existance off. Kewl.
Should really add as well that this really only exists in the mileu of London. I've not met any Anarchists either in the UK that report such a rife problem as real world events. Comrades round the world think we're barmy too and this literally doesn't exist as a proble in the Anarchist scene anywhere else.
If it amounts as a split I'd say "whether Anarchists vote" or "are dreads ok" are much bigger ones.
It worries me that you talk of reconciliation but havn't once called out some of the more transphobic and dogwhistle shit here about "trans women in sportz" and "trans arn't women" etc etc that so very clearly has others such commenting back. I think even if you are on the other side of the coin from me in this discussion "good faith" would be shown by tempering the nasty language used by people you may or may not agree with...
Idpol is indeed a problem and a lot of people slip into it on near every factor... That shouldn't an excuse not to call of bigotry and labelling things Idpol as a mask for bigotry is pretty shitty too... It's happened a little on this thread and it's sure as shit happens across social media and you know...the world. Acknowledgeing the rights of, and the specific issues felt by the trans community is not IDPol. It's solidarity.
The irony here is that feminists had to fight for their place in the movement facing the same shit, and even now we work against misogyny in the movement.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
What? It's been (and still is) a massive area of disagreement in the city I live in (NOT LONDON) resulting in fallouts and people leaving the scene and city (including 2 trans people basically driven out for not toeing the line that trans women are exactly the same as women) and I know other people in other cities where it's an issue as well. A reason why it might not seem that way is basically most people I know have reached a position of not discussing or even mentioning it as it seems to be an issue with no constructive way forward between the groups that disagree, including a good number of women I know who are scared to do so lest they be bullied and harassed as they've seen happen to others.
Also I think you really might just mean the USA when you say 'round the world'. In France, Eastern Europe, and some other places I have good comrades in they say it is a topic that's starting to come up there with similar results and conflicts as here. As for further afield, have you been anywhere with a non-Western anarchist movement/scene? They might well think we're barmy about this, but not for the reasons you might think.
And this is all just in the anarchist scene. Have you talked to anyone outside that about this issue? It is very definitely not all simple and decided upon.
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At the risk of repeating myself, that is typical and expected behaviour for crackpots. There is, after all, a reason why "Comparing those who argue against your beliefs to Nazis, stormtroopers or brownshirts" get its own item on the index netting almost the maximum number of points.
People both refuse to acknowledge the existence of transwomen and complain about the existence of transwomen in women's sports? Do you realize you're talking literal nonsense?
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