Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement
- Thread starter ernestolynch
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Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
I saw that earlier. Their wording is muddled, but i think they mean that the army are siding with the protesters - at the end of the vid you can clearly see armed army personnel engaging with protesters.
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
Fingers crossed that more soldiers start siding with the people, & it's not just a small pocket as that vid shows.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Ok there seem to be a few new videos coming out of Libya now, 3 recent ones from this user, protests in Zintan and Mesrata and one that shows gruesome footage of a dead person that they think is one of the African mercenaries.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MeddiTV#p/u
http://www.youtube.com/user/MeddiTV#p/u
elbows
Well-Known Member
CNN has heard from a doctor in Benghazi who said that helicopters fired at protesters, and that the city is effectively under siege. But the usual sources on twitter say they have checked and its not the case (although it may well have been earlier and I doubt they are taking that into account). Also some rumours of anti-aircraft guns being used in the area but again no real way to determine if its true.
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
It's all very chaotic - but i think his fingers are on the pulse.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yes I posted a link the the youtube user who posted that vid and a couple of others earlier.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yeah dont get me wrong, a lot of what has been written about the east could be true, its just so annoying that its impossible to confirm and that particular twitter account uses very strong, certain language when perhaps they shouldnt. All this talk of the true Libyan flag flying over various cities, I want to see it if its really happened.
At least there is some info & footage coming out now, there were many hours where things went disturbingly quiet on this front.
elbows
Well-Known Member
This video is claimed to show scenes from Shahat last night 'after the army was overthrown'. Can see some sort of building that has collapsed, and some protesters in a bus.
Other recent reports from the now frenzied english twitter activity suggests protests in several areas of Tripoli, and large numbers protesting in Misurata (3rd largest city, business capital, east of Tripoli but much closer than the other cities we've heard about).
Seeing as there is no way to confirm reports of some protests in Tripoli yesterday, I have to urge caution about todays Tripoli reports.
Other recent reports from the now frenzied english twitter activity suggests protests in several areas of Tripoli, and large numbers protesting in Misurata (3rd largest city, business capital, east of Tripoli but much closer than the other cities we've heard about).
Seeing as there is no way to confirm reports of some protests in Tripoli yesterday, I have to urge caution about todays Tripoli reports.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Various people on twitter are now realising that Benghazi is not 100% secured by protesters, with a focus on the Fadhil Camp, which is where earlier reports of up to 200 dead and possible use of anti-aircraft weapons or snipers were also coming from. There is also a rumour that General Abdullah Senussi, head of Libyan intelligence may be there.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Reports coming in that military base in the area has fallen to protesters, grenade used to breach the wall, and also reports that nephew of either Gadaffi or the intelligence chief was killed.
Got this info from the usual tweeters but some of it is being corroborated by a doctor right now live on AlJazeera, people started celebrating behind the doctor whilst he was giving a phone interview and all of this is unfolding live on air right now.
Got this info from the usual tweeters but some of it is being corroborated by a doctor right now live on AlJazeera, people started celebrating behind the doctor whilst he was giving a phone interview and all of this is unfolding live on air right now.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Some of the people on twitter are getting very upset with the media for not reporting everything they have said. The likes of Evan Hill from AlJazeera English is trying to explain to them the need to corroborate the stories, pointing out some of the problems with rumours such as as eastern Libya being declared 'free' 24 hours ago, yet still military etc in the area.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Nothing more solid than earlier,but rumours have now started about protests in Tripoli, and that teargas & helicopters shooting at people in one area of Tripoli, and one very unconfirmed report of government building being torched there.
The earlier stories about a grenade being used to bring down the wall of Al-Fadhil/Birka barracks have a couple of alternative versions of the story around now, that it was TNT not a grenade, or that a bulldozer were used.
Another youtube user that seems to have recent videos. One of them is of the large weapon in a vehicle I posted a link to earlier, but there are also videos of protests, some dead people rather unceremoniously being paraded on the front of a vehicle (pro-regime corpses I assume), and lots of people in multiple vehicles with a variety of weaponry including guns and what looks like shells/mortars.
http://www.youtube.com/user/coffeeaddict99#p/u/
The earlier stories about a grenade being used to bring down the wall of Al-Fadhil/Birka barracks have a couple of alternative versions of the story around now, that it was TNT not a grenade, or that a bulldozer were used.
Another youtube user that seems to have recent videos. One of them is of the large weapon in a vehicle I posted a link to earlier, but there are also videos of protests, some dead people rather unceremoniously being paraded on the front of a vehicle (pro-regime corpses I assume), and lots of people in multiple vehicles with a variety of weaponry including guns and what looks like shells/mortars.
http://www.youtube.com/user/coffeeaddict99#p/u/
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
Libya is most emphatically not Egypt.
I've been wrenched away from the internet for some considerable hours. Seems some stuff is being partially corroborated on the ground now, from the last couple of minutes of AJE and your posts.
It is unfortunate that there is a bottleneck for info just now out of Libya through tweeps, where even the media only get info from them or through them, seems like, as you say, elbows. Not many ways of getting round that unless some adventurous reporters get in there. Would they not be able to phone hospitals or universities and get some English speakers or get some Arabic speakers to call? Although I suppose most would be in Tripoli and that's not where the action seems to be. And maybe they monitor incoming international calls making it dangerous.
I've been wrenched away from the internet for some considerable hours. Seems some stuff is being partially corroborated on the ground now, from the last couple of minutes of AJE and your posts.
It is unfortunate that there is a bottleneck for info just now out of Libya through tweeps, where even the media only get info from them or through them, seems like, as you say, elbows. Not many ways of getting round that unless some adventurous reporters get in there. Would they not be able to phone hospitals or universities and get some English speakers or get some Arabic speakers to call? Although I suppose most would be in Tripoli and that's not where the action seems to be. And maybe they monitor incoming international calls making it dangerous.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Welcome back, I was going a bit crazy talking to myself earlier (Im a bit ill at the moment so I figured I may as well just slump in front of the net all day).
Last time I checked Al Jazeera they had spoken to that one doctor on the phone, and there were reports earlier today that a lot of phone calls were breaking up. Even though the internet is flaky or completely unavailable in some places, I did expect to hear a bit more from the 'free' areas than has actually been the case so far, not sure if I should read anything into that.
The attention of the tweeters seemed to turn to Tripoli for a while earlier, although some more stuff is starting to come through from Benghazi, with a completely unconfirmed report that more mercenaries have arrived at the airport. This despite plenty of rumours in recent days that the airport had been taken over by protesters and maybe they even destroyed the runway. Hmmm, more reasons to exercise caution about the quality of info.
It sounds like an opposition politician who lives abroad has been on France 24 making a variety of claims, will post about those shortly once Ive digested them. I might be barking up the wrong tree, but I've been a bit cynical about some of the Libyan opposition living abroad in recent days, they seem to present incredible facts in very matter of fact ways, they might be spot on but at times there seems to be an agenda which is not cleverly disguised or well moderated, dunno.
Last time I checked Al Jazeera they had spoken to that one doctor on the phone, and there were reports earlier today that a lot of phone calls were breaking up. Even though the internet is flaky or completely unavailable in some places, I did expect to hear a bit more from the 'free' areas than has actually been the case so far, not sure if I should read anything into that.
The attention of the tweeters seemed to turn to Tripoli for a while earlier, although some more stuff is starting to come through from Benghazi, with a completely unconfirmed report that more mercenaries have arrived at the airport. This despite plenty of rumours in recent days that the airport had been taken over by protesters and maybe they even destroyed the runway. Hmmm, more reasons to exercise caution about the quality of info.
It sounds like an opposition politician who lives abroad has been on France 24 making a variety of claims, will post about those shortly once Ive digested them. I might be barking up the wrong tree, but I've been a bit cynical about some of the Libyan opposition living abroad in recent days, they seem to present incredible facts in very matter of fact ways, they might be spot on but at times there seems to be an agenda which is not cleverly disguised or well moderated, dunno.
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
I don't know about Libya but in Egypt, AFAIK, landlines were working ok or okish, but very few people have a tarriff allowing them int'l calls because that is very expensive. This is maybe even more likely in Libya, especially outside of Tripoli. As with many countries in Africa they may also have a big mobile industry amongst the poor rather than landlines too.
With regard to the tweet info. No one has any sort of overview. Seems to me anyone on the ground will have only very localised information and much of that will be what someone has shouted to them whilst running away quite fast. So within Libya there will be a lot of intentional and unintentional misinformation too. Mabye, just maybe there was a point in Benghazi where the protesters had the upper hand or thought they did until reinforcements arrived.
That video with the army hanging out with protesters. Any soldier doing that has signed their death warrant if Gaddafi wins. Big risk if you don't have any confidence in the protests. Maybe, like the people, they will win or die too and chose their side.
I guess people in Libya AJE are speaking to have been confirmed by AJE as being in Libya at least.
What I find disheartening and of concern is whatever they might claim about taking benghazi or wherever, the videos are showing very small numbers of protesters.
The mercenaries thing is very persistent.
Below I descend further into rambling.
We have all been subject to mainstream media and it all reads as true enough until we get a bit more cynical, if we ever do. So I can know that papers come up with a lot of guff sometimes while still believing the jist of most of it is true, if through an agenda filter. It can't be completely made up, surely. D'oh. When I first started reading the odd alternative news source, eg New Internationalist, i would think but that can't be true. They must be exaggerating. And also recognising that everyone filters to suit their purpose. And I've noticed and remarked to myself that it's odd that I almost seemed more critical of these reports than I was capable of the mainstream. It seems incredible. Can things really be like this. I still find myself questioning it more almost than mainstream then scold myself. So much in Libya and other places is just so foreign to us, so brutal, so contrary to how our own society works. things that seem unbelievable to me can and will be true. I've been remembering this as I've been watching Egypt and this. And I want some things to be true even as I try to be rational. Hopes raised and dashed in turn.
I hope that they are just misinformed and in hoping so hard have got things wrong. We want this so badly for them. But this really really matters to them. It is life and death, sometimes after torture, for those in Libya. Also what classic said about morale and propaganda and exaggeration. I wonder if they feel a huge pressure to keep our eyes on them, when they don't have the media there and have given into temptation.
What in particular are you suspicious of and in what way?
I'm thinking the biggest crowd I've seen is in the pic dylans posted at the airport/harbour at Benghazi(?). Know the one I mean? I'm going to have another look at that I think.
random thinking out loud ends.
With regard to the tweet info. No one has any sort of overview. Seems to me anyone on the ground will have only very localised information and much of that will be what someone has shouted to them whilst running away quite fast. So within Libya there will be a lot of intentional and unintentional misinformation too. Mabye, just maybe there was a point in Benghazi where the protesters had the upper hand or thought they did until reinforcements arrived.
That video with the army hanging out with protesters. Any soldier doing that has signed their death warrant if Gaddafi wins. Big risk if you don't have any confidence in the protests. Maybe, like the people, they will win or die too and chose their side.
I guess people in Libya AJE are speaking to have been confirmed by AJE as being in Libya at least.
What I find disheartening and of concern is whatever they might claim about taking benghazi or wherever, the videos are showing very small numbers of protesters.
The mercenaries thing is very persistent.
Below I descend further into rambling.
We have all been subject to mainstream media and it all reads as true enough until we get a bit more cynical, if we ever do. So I can know that papers come up with a lot of guff sometimes while still believing the jist of most of it is true, if through an agenda filter. It can't be completely made up, surely. D'oh. When I first started reading the odd alternative news source, eg New Internationalist, i would think but that can't be true. They must be exaggerating. And also recognising that everyone filters to suit their purpose. And I've noticed and remarked to myself that it's odd that I almost seemed more critical of these reports than I was capable of the mainstream. It seems incredible. Can things really be like this. I still find myself questioning it more almost than mainstream then scold myself. So much in Libya and other places is just so foreign to us, so brutal, so contrary to how our own society works. things that seem unbelievable to me can and will be true. I've been remembering this as I've been watching Egypt and this. And I want some things to be true even as I try to be rational. Hopes raised and dashed in turn.
I hope that they are just misinformed and in hoping so hard have got things wrong. We want this so badly for them. But this really really matters to them. It is life and death, sometimes after torture, for those in Libya. Also what classic said about morale and propaganda and exaggeration. I wonder if they feel a huge pressure to keep our eyes on them, when they don't have the media there and have given into temptation.
What in particular are you suspicious of and in what way?
I'm thinking the biggest crowd I've seen is in the pic dylans posted at the airport/harbour at Benghazi(?). Know the one I mean? I'm going to have another look at that I think.
random thinking out loud ends.
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
From Benghazi
This. Where in Benghazi is it meant to be? Harbour? Security building? What is the scene meant to be? I can't 'read' it at all. I'm not getting ''We've taken Benghazi'' vibes but why would there be such a big crowd there.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yeah there is at least one protest in Benghazi that seemed to have large numbers, I had tended towards assuming this was the main focus point for protests there, near the courthouse, but I have no proof of this.
When I talk of suspicions, I just mean that those outside Libya make the same excited noises that dont bring with them automatic credibility and sound far too certain of everything, the stuff we always tend to get from, for lack of a more long-winded description, exiles. This is in stark contrast to the youth movement stuff we got to read about in english when it came to Egypt.
I think even ShababLibya is getting tired of the quality of info, many desperate please for real media to get into Libya, and exasperation with news that some cars in Benghazi are 'randomly shooting at people', which they described as confirmed one minute, and then unconfirmed the next.
When it comes to your thoughts on mainstream media vs alternative news sources, I dont think its a mistake to be more critical of the alternative sources than mainstream media, for a number of reasons. We are more likely to have deep existing knowledge of the mainstream filters and bias, the agenda is clear to us, and for all the faults of pro journalists they do tend to have rules which benefit the quality of information. (Im not talking about tabloids). The right amount of cynicism about mainstream sources and spin is therefore likely to come more naturally to us once we've been exposed to it for many years, not so some other sources that are new to us. Not that I think there is anything wrong with using smaller sources that may not even have the pretence of being balanced, but obviously do need to be careful. This is clearly one of the areas that conspiracy theorists go wrong, discover some lies and in the quest to escape the lies walk right into some even dodgier lies.
The thing with Libya right now is deeply frustrating on so many levels and thats why I lost my rag with it somewhat last night. It just makes me appreciate how lucky we were with Egypt, and its a stark reminder that the internet is very far from being a perfect tool to ensure the right side can harness information to its advantage at tricky moments. Libya was always likely to suffer badly from these problems and I have no idea if it would have been possible to do better if cleverer preparation had been made by protest groups both inside & outside the country, if they had thought this stuff through more before the protests began.
When I talk of suspicions, I just mean that those outside Libya make the same excited noises that dont bring with them automatic credibility and sound far too certain of everything, the stuff we always tend to get from, for lack of a more long-winded description, exiles. This is in stark contrast to the youth movement stuff we got to read about in english when it came to Egypt.
I think even ShababLibya is getting tired of the quality of info, many desperate please for real media to get into Libya, and exasperation with news that some cars in Benghazi are 'randomly shooting at people', which they described as confirmed one minute, and then unconfirmed the next.
When it comes to your thoughts on mainstream media vs alternative news sources, I dont think its a mistake to be more critical of the alternative sources than mainstream media, for a number of reasons. We are more likely to have deep existing knowledge of the mainstream filters and bias, the agenda is clear to us, and for all the faults of pro journalists they do tend to have rules which benefit the quality of information. (Im not talking about tabloids). The right amount of cynicism about mainstream sources and spin is therefore likely to come more naturally to us once we've been exposed to it for many years, not so some other sources that are new to us. Not that I think there is anything wrong with using smaller sources that may not even have the pretence of being balanced, but obviously do need to be careful. This is clearly one of the areas that conspiracy theorists go wrong, discover some lies and in the quest to escape the lies walk right into some even dodgier lies.
The thing with Libya right now is deeply frustrating on so many levels and thats why I lost my rag with it somewhat last night. It just makes me appreciate how lucky we were with Egypt, and its a stark reminder that the internet is very far from being a perfect tool to ensure the right side can harness information to its advantage at tricky moments. Libya was always likely to suffer badly from these problems and I have no idea if it would have been possible to do better if cleverer preparation had been made by protest groups both inside & outside the country, if they had thought this stuff through more before the protests began.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Al Jaz is showing horrific footage from Benghazi. Loads of dead. Lots of head shots indicating a shoot to kill policy.Loads of high calibre casings. Footage of (apparently) yellow hatted "mercenaries" firing at random. I don't know what to make of reports of cities being liberated etc but for sure Gaddafi is killing his people with a vengeance.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Im not sure how much it matters as to exactly where in Benghazi this was. As regards "we've taken Benghazi", without further info I've decided to convert such statements into either "people are on the streets at the moment without being attacked", "there is no sign of security forces", or if I give the twitter stuff a more benefit of doubt, "obvious locations associated with security forces have been taken over by protesters".
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well the yellow hardhat footage is at least 24 hours old as I saw it on the net yesterday. And yes at minimum we can say from footage that there have been plenty of deaths, although Ive seen nothing to prove the 'many hundreds killed' horror stories that have been around today, although they could well be true
That clip of casings someone was picking up did indeed feature some horrendously large ones.We know even less about possible armed violence from the protesters side. There are videos of a few dead people that are assumed to be pro government, and footage that does seem to suggest that reports of the people managing to get a variety of arms, including some rather heavy stuff, are true, but no direct evidence of any of it being used.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Live feed from Libya here
http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb
http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb
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