Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Giles]

Big evac op from UK military, no matter what your opinions on the armed forces they did the business past 24 hours, fantastic work.

It's all over bar the Ukranian woman wailing.

This news will certainly be one in the eye for the tabloids who were all whinging the other day about how crap our country was being in terms of not sending planes to Tripoli airport as quickly as the Germans and various other nations....

Giles..

 

[madshadow]

Yes of course.Bengazi hasn't fallen at all, neither has most of the country. Libyans haven't just waded through blood with bare hands against military bases firing live ammunition at them at the cost of over 1000 lives. It's all made up. The disgusting photos of people with their heads literally blown off is all CGI. It's all the CIA and Al Jazeera. They love Gadaffi.

And you are a fucking idiot

Interesting however how at a time when the regime is mounting a propaganda counter offensive useful idiots like this crawl out of the woodwork. It happened in Egypt too. As soon as Mubarak started mobilising his brownshirts we startsed getting these idiots claiming he was "popular really" . Ok. If Gadaffi is so popular in Tripoli why is all independent media banned (and no, regime organised press visits don't count) and why is he shooting unarmed demonstrators dead every time they raise a voice against the regime?

New mass protests against US-backed regimes in Egypt and Yemen

Tens of thousands of Egyptians poured into Tahrir Square in Cairo Friday to mark two weeks since the fall of hated dictator Hosni Mubarak and to protest the lack of real change. Meanwhile, a strike wave in Egypt continues, with industrial action extended to virtually every sector of the economy.....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/feb2011/egye-f26.shtml

Whats your point?

 

[elbows]

This news will certainly be one in the eye for the tabloids who were all whinging the other day about how crap our country was being in terms of not sending planes to Tripoli airport as quickly as the Germans and various other nations....

Giles..

Bollocks - the complaints were about lack of communication/competence by the FCO, and the delays in starting to get people out. The government looks to have gotten away with it because in the end the lost time doesnt seem to have mattered. Other countries started getting their military to do stuff before us.

 

[elbows]

New mass protests against US-backed regimes in Egypt and Yemen

Tens of thousands of Egyptians poured into Tahrir Square in Cairo Friday to mark two weeks since the fall of hated dictator Hosni Mubarak and to protest the lack of real change. Meanwhile, a strike wave in Egypt continues, with industrial action extended to virtually every sector of the economy.....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/feb2011/egye-f26.shtml

Whats your point?

What it your point? I dont know what you are trying to say by posting that article at all. Its well known here which regimes the US supports in the region. Gaddafi was not as close to the US as the likes of Mubaraks regime were, but in all the key areas of recent times Gaddafi was a partner they could do business with. Indeed his regime coming in from the cold was one of he few claims that the Bush regime could make that their shit global policies of threats and violence worked, and pressured Gaddafi to become a useful US partner rather than a thorn in their side.

There are only two regimes in the region that we can safely assume the US would like to fall - Iran and Syria. Oh and Hamas in Gaza.

 

[Giles]

Bollocks - the complaints were about lack of communication/competence by the FCO, and the delays in starting to get people out. The government looks to have gotten away with it because in the end the lost time doesnt seem to have mattered. Other countries started getting their military to do stuff before us.

I agree with you - the UK government WAS disorganised in telling UK citizens what they should do, and in getting planes over there.

I was just pointing out that this "daring desert rescue mission" will have the effect of stopping the chorus of disapproval from the Mail etc.

I wasn't saying that I personally think that Britain's overall response has been good.

Giles..

 

[quimcunx]

New mass protests against US-backed regimes in Egypt and Yemen

Tens of thousands of Egyptians poured into Tahrir Square in Cairo Friday to mark two weeks since the fall of hated dictator Hosni Mubarak and to protest the lack of real change. Meanwhile, a strike wave in Egypt continues, with industrial action extended to virtually every sector of the economy.....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/feb2011/egye-f26.shtml

Whats your point?

So what you seem to be saying is that Yemen and Egypt are US backed regimes and the uprisings of their people against the US backed regimes are US led coups so that the US can install a US led regime? Is that right? Or when you say west do you mean excluding the US, ie Europe and that in fact these are Europe-led coups to topple US led regimes? Just to be clear.

 

[elbows]

I agree with you - the UK government WAS disorganised in telling UK citizens what they should do, and in getting planes over there.

I was just pointing out that this "daring desert rescue mission" will have the effect of stopping the chorus of disapproval from the Mail etc.

I wasn't saying that I personally think that Britain's overall response has been good.

Giles..

Ahh right. Yes, they will change their tune a little and with no deaths of uk citizens that we know of the criticisms will likely fade somewhat. I havent heard much from William Hague recently, maybe they put a zip on his mouth given his multiple missteps earlier in the week. He can take the blame for all the failings, and Cameron will take the credit for things going ok once he returned to the UK I guess.

 

[elbows]

Some people on twitter as suspicious that the internet has come back in Benghazi.

 

[weltweit]

Have not read the last few pages.

I see that the UK has sent some military planes to get oil workers out.
I see that the former justice minister is talking of setting up provisional government in Banghazi.
Obama is now calling for Gaddafi to leave
Egyptian immigrant workers are fleeing in large numbers

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Do they have military conscription in Libya?

 

[elbows]

Comedy fake state tv twitter account:

http://twitter.com/#!/LibyanStateTV

A few examples:

We're looking for new nations to participate in the partition of Switzerland as France, Germany & Italy have drank the nescafe

Reports of Britain shutting down it's embassy are exaggerated. They're all going to Malta to drink tea. All is well in Tripoli.

Our Naval Commander is not missing nor has he defected. He is merely on a fishing trip with some friends

New Job Opening: Nurse for influential figure. Must be busty. Nursing school experience optional. Apply in Tripoli from Feb28 to Mar4

 

[dylans]

New mass protests against US-backed regimes in Egypt and Yemen

Tens of thousands of Egyptians poured into Tahrir Square in Cairo Friday to mark two weeks since the fall of hated dictator Hosni Mubarak and to protest the lack of real change. Meanwhile, a strike wave in Egypt continues, with industrial action extended to virtually every sector of the economy.....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/feb2011/egye-f26.shtml

Whats your point?

What's yours?

There is a revolutionary process going on that is sweeping the region. A revoilutionary wave in part inspired in reaction to the kind of neo liberal policies advocated by the US and the IMF. Mubarak's Egypt and Ben Ali's Tunisia were both considered models of neo liberalism and Gadaffi has been busy privatising all state run enterprises and inviting in foreign investment since at least 2005.

It is exactly these policies that have seen a growth in unemployment, lowering of wages, rises in foodstuffs etc and all overseen by ruthless state machinery used to crush strikes and demonstrations and eliminate democratic expressions of opposition etc. In so much as this wave of revolutions are in part directed at the consequences of these policies they are directly antagonistic to the interests of the US. To describe e these massive outpourings of popular discontent as merely coups of the US is deeply insulting the people of the region, many of whom have shown tremendous courage and in some cases lost their lives fighting in these revolutions. They are the opposite of what you claim, popular uprisings against decades of repression and the hopelessness caused by US and IMF enforced neo liberal polices.

This is what was said about neo liberalism in Egypt

The only people for whom Egyptian neoliberalism worked "by the book" were the most vulnerable members of society, and their experience with neoliberalism was not a pretty picture. Organised labor was fiercely suppressed. The public education and the health care systems were gutted by a combination of neglect and privatization. Much of the population suffered stagnant or falling wages relative to inflation. Official unemployment was estimated at approximately 9.4% last year (and much higher for the youth who spearheaded the January 25th Revolution), and about 20% of the population is said to live below a poverty line defined as $2 per day per person.

And Libya

The main face of the neo-liberal agenda was Shokri Ghanem, who would be removed as Prime Minister of the cabinet in 2006 for the more important role as head of the National Oil Corporation. Ghanem aggressively pushed for foreign investment into the oil sector, and hastened to implement the Exploration and Production Sharing Agreements with companies that ranged from Occidental Petroleum to China National Petroleum. Britain’s Tony Blair and France’s Sarkozy went to kiss Ghanem’s ring and pledge finance for oil concessions. It is the reason why the British government freed the alleged Lockerbie bomber and that Berlusconi bowed down before Omar al-Mukhtar’s son in 2008 and handed over $5 billion as an apology for Italian colonialism. In his characteristic bluntness, Berlusconi said that he apologized so that Italy would get “less illegal immigrants and more oil.

Gadaffi's son Muatassim was active in the creation of an Export Free Trade Zone near Zuwara. Muatassim, whom the Serbian Ambassador to Tripoli called “a bloody man” and “not terribly bright,” has long been angry at his brother Saif, whom many consider to have been scheduled as Qaddafi’s successor. Saif, meanwhile, has tried to hasten the pace of reforms via his super-committee of the Economic and Development Board. The brothers have long fought with each other, but on the substance of neo-liberalism, they appear on the same side. It is just that each wants credit for the “reforms” over the other.

Uprisings in the east combined with the neo-liberal efforts from Tripoli have alienated large sections of the population against the Gaddafi regime. Little of the luster of 1969 remains with the old man. He is a caricature of the aged revolutionary.

Any guesses which country the IMF were praising just two weeks ago?

Less than two weeks ago, the International Monetary Fund’s executive board, its highest authority, assessed a North African country’s economy and commended its government for its “ambitious reform agenda.” The I.M.F. also welcomed its “strong macroeconomic performance and the progress on enhancing the role of the private sector,” and “encouraged” the authorities to continue on that promising path.

Yeah, Libya

By unfortunate timing, that country was Libya. The fund’s mission to Tripoli had somehow omitted to check whether the “ambitious” reform agenda was based on any kind of popular support.

Libya is not an isolated case. And the I.M.F. doesn’t look good after it gave glowing reviews to many of the countries shaken by popular revolts in recent weeks. Tunisia was hailed last September for its “wide-ranging structural reforms” and “prudent macroeconomic management.”

Bahrain was credited in December with a “favorable near-term outlook” after the economy “managed the global crisis well.” Algeria’s “prudent macroeconomic policies” helped it to “build a sound financial position with a very low level of debt.” And in Cairo, the I.M.F. directors last April praised the authorities’ response to the crisis as well as their “sound macroeconomic management.”

http://www.eurasiareview.com/analysis/the-libyan-labyrinth-22022011/

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/02/201122414315249621.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/business/23views.html

 

[elbows]

LibyanAffairs
one thing no one understands here in Tripoli: the mobile companies keep topping up the phones for free #Feb17 mystery!

I would guess because they want to listen in or otherwise track. And also because they probably want people to spread the stories of violence that encourage fear?

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Ahh right. Yes, they will change their tune a little and with no deaths of uk citizens that we know of the criticisms will likely fade somewhat. I havent heard much from William Hague recently, maybe they put a zip on his mouth given his multiple missteps earlier in the week. He can take the blame for all the failings, and Cameron will take the credit for things going ok once he returned to the UK I guess.

Kind of looks like Liam Fox has been doing a bit of positioning against Hague. Hague will have known about operations being planned, but obviously couldn't say anything, Fox gets to wave his willy about on the news channels when things start to happen, good-publicity-wise. MOD against FCO! That's never happened before.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

Gadafi is over, it's now official. The downfall parody is out.

 

[DownwardDog]

don't think RAF Chinooks can be refueled in mid air the cock up of the hc3 fiasco saw to that the KC135 being a huge jet based on a Boeing 707 and a Chinook top speed less than 200mph its probably their to keep the spy plane in the air while the Chinooks make the relatively slow journey in to get the peeps in the desert. getting the spy-plane to give some advance warning if anyone in a fast jet decides to take an interest.

The KC-135 is not based on the 707. It was developed from the C-135 which in turn was based on the "dash 80" prototype. It has a completely different fuselage. The only genuine 707 tankers were the South African, Israeli and Australian examples.

 

[classicdish]

These people are so brave.

Mercenaries shooting protesters at close range.



Via: Arab Revolution http://arabrevolution.posterous.com/mercenaries-shooting-protesters-at-close-rang

(can anyone find a translation of what people are saying?)

I believe its just another west-sponsored coup d'état. I dont buy this whole people's revolution thing. There is much greater interest in taking over Libya's oil reserves, all nicely hidden behind the overthrowing of "the evil, mad, blood thirsty dictator", which seems to be the priority at the moment. But its not. I dont believe for a second that anyone gives a flying f**k about Libyans. Specially not NATO who were happy to kill a million+ in Afghanistan & Iraq in order to supposedly introduce "western democracy"... Thats just my opinion. But lets see what happens next.

@madshadow, please watch the footage above and explain to me how it fits in with being "western-sponsored"? Are you saying that America is buying people stones to throw? That these young Libyan people people are facing up to the men with guns and being murdered in the street because they have been paid to do so by America? Or are you saying that footage like this has somehow been faked up - that it's all a bunch of people firing blanks and just pretending to have their heads blown off using clever make-up and ketchup? What exactly are you saying, because I can't get my head around it. :s

 

[classicdish]

07.35am - 07.43am

via twitter

@iyad_elbaghdadi

> Good morning!
> I actually feel good today. Slept well after three days with practically no sleep.
> To start, this caught my attention: #Aljazeera tours #Gaddafi's palace & bunker in Al-Bayda: http://j.mp/hkjUjn #Libya
> I should tell you that a bunch of us with #Tripoli/#Libya sources got together online yesterday and made a decision.
> So far, we've been eager to be the first to break the news stories, esp. out of the troubled west/#Tripoli. #Libya
> But then we realized that in our eagerness to report we may be compromising people on the ground, or giving away too much info. #Libya
> So from today I personally will only give stories that cannot be used by #Gaddafi, or will give them after-the-fact. #Libya
> I hope others with sources would do the same. Let's not lose site of the goal here - liberty and safety for #Libya.
> I hope you guys understand, and I hope you help me convince others not to be too eager with such sensitive news. #Libya
> Yesterday I told you I have good news from Misurata. I think it's safe now to say it. #Libya
> We had reports that a highly trained, well armed battalion managed to get from #Benghazi to Misurata safe & sound. #Libya
> Misurata now is well defended: http://j.mp/enKZEV http://j.mp/g6IBOB #Libya
> Now going to collect reports for today so I can pass them on to you (whatever is safe of course). An hour's time or so.

 

[dylans]

Oh what a surprise.

A company that supplies riot control ammunition and a manufacturer of electrified razor wire were among a UK government arms delegation to Tripoli as recently as three months ago.

Amid concern that British equipment may have been used by the Gaddafi regime to suppress unrest in Libya, it has now come to light that representatives of at least 50 UK arms companies accompanied officials to meet military figures in November. They included Birmingham Barbed Tape, which produces razor wire that delivers a "repulse shock", and Lincolnshire-based Primetake, which offers teargas cartridges and rubber bullets.

Reports from Tripoli indicate that security forces have used teargas as well as live ammunition against protesters, though there is no evidence British products have been involved.

The delegation is understood to have been led by Britain's ambassador to Libya, Richard Northern. It attended an arms fair called Libdex at Tripoli's Mitiga military airport,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/27/libyan-arms-fair-attended-by-uk-firms

Here are their email addresses in case anyone wishes to send hate mail.

razorwire@bbtltd.co.uk

sales@primetake.co.uk

 

[dylans]

Fascinating portrait of Benghazi's revolutionary headquarters by Al Jaz

Along streets where it once would have been unthinkable to question Colonel Gaddafi, whose rule is now in its 42nd year, spray-painted graffiti covers nearly every wall. Atop a gutted former security headquarters where the opposition now collects turned-in weapons, a huge, red, green and black flag flies – the first banner of post-colonial Libyan independence, which protesters have adopted as a symbol of a second independence from Gaddafi's rule.

Next door stands Benghazi's main courthouse. Its exterior remains covered in graffiti but comparatively unscathed. This is the new headquarters and nerve centre for Libya's opposition. A week after the city fell to the protesters following bloody fighting with the local military garrison, it now features an organised civilian security team at the main entrance, a kitchen and an internet centre where Ahmed Sanalla and a small crew of tech-minded men lean over laptops.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201122753146444424.html

In an adjacent room sits a large, industrial printer taken from an architect's office that produces the opposition's large banners. Mohammed al-Zawam, a 25-year-old media assistant, held one up: In the revolt's red, green and black colours, it called for free elections and "equality for all".

Much of the equipment, food and medical aid powering and sustaining the uprising in Benghazi and elsewhere have been donated. The media cell consists of young men who brought their own laptops and desktops in the days after the Benghazi military garrison finally fell. Libyans have come out to volunteer and give their services, and the altruism has even extended to foreign journalists, who have often received room and board for free while covering the unrest.

In the meantime, Benghazi's men on Saturday were queueing outside revolutionary headquarters to sign up for the opposition's new army, and around 300km down the road to Sirte, in the west, returning journalists reported that they had been stopped and briefly detained by a military unit still loyal to Gaddafi.

 

[elbows]

I get the idea that this opposition headquarters was first seen by the outside world via the live internet video stream that appeared about a week ago, via satellite internet. I was a bit negative about it when it first appeared on this thread because the first person I saw speaking on it still seemed to be in a state of shock and fear and they were not able to deliver any information that was of much use in enlightening the outside world as to what was happening. So happy to now see that this was actually the beginnings of liberated Benghazi getting its act together. Sadly I also remember the excitement of people in the background there when they heard news that suggested Tripoli was starting to fall, pretty much an entire week ago now. Some people on twitter were also getting ahead of themselves at the time, confidently predicting that they would beat Egypts record for how long it took to get rid of a president.

 

[quimcunx]

Are we on day 12 or 13 now? 18 days to beat?

 

[dylans]

I get the idea that this opposition headquarters was first seen by the outside world via the live internet video stream that appeared about a week ago, via satellite internet. I was a bit negative about it when it first appeared on this thread because the first person I saw speaking on it still seemed to be in a state of shock and fear and they were not able to deliver any information that was of much use in enlightening the outside world as to what was happening. So happy to now see that this was actually the beginnings of liberated Benghazi getting its act together. Sadly I also remember the excitement of people in the background there when they heard news that suggested Tripoli was starting to fall, pretty much an entire week ago now.

A week isn't very long to be fair. I think we are all spoilt by the speed of previous events but we should remember that this uprising is still only a fortnight old and they have taken most of the country. Ben Ali took a month to fall and we all marvel now at the speed of his departure. Mubarak took about 3 weeks so if Gaddafi were to fall tomorrow or this week it would still be the fastest overthrow so far.

News on now that Zawiyah has fallen. Not long now before the bastard goes

 

[elbows]

News on now that Zawiyah has fallen. Not long now before the bastard goes

Yeah Im not saying things arent going 'well', only that some on twitter were getting a bit carried away by events last weekend.The painful realities of Tripoli have set in since then.

As for Zawiyah, lols via the Guardian:

11.18am: Peter Beaumont has just phoned in with news that has come straight from Catch-22. In the Audioboo, he told me me Libyan minders were taking him to the town of Zawiyah, presumably to show that it's still under government control. That has not turned out to be the case as Peter has been busy interviewing rebel forces who have taken over the town. He can confirm that Zawiyah, some 30 kilometres from Tripoli is under rebel control. The people he talked to in the town centre said they are now under "Benghazi government" control. In the background there are people chanting "Down with Gaddafi" and "We want change". So the regime's PR campaign has got off to a shaky start to say the least as the minders have taken foreign journalists to a town in rebel hands. Pity those minders, not exactly what the regime had in mind.

 

[elbows]

As for Tripoli, there are a number of reports around at the moment that tend to confirm the picture of recent days that a couple of the poorer areas of Tripoli are no longer under firm regime control. Just have to hope that this is not just a temporary state of affairs driven by the regimes current propaganda stuff with foreign journalists (ie regime holding off from large use of force because Saif's 'its just fireworks you hear' excuse is rather thin). Tajoura is the district we have heard the most about in regards to this so far, there is even a photo from an AP photographer of people protesting there at a funeral for one of those killed on Friday.

 

[dylans]

Pity those minders, not exactly what the regime had in mind.

So the regime escorted journalists to a town that is in the hands of rebels? On sky the journalists in Zawiyah are saying they intend to return to Tripoli. So is Gaddafi now allowing journalists to freely travel to rebel territory now? and what happens to their "minders"? Arrested? Sounds very odd.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Al-Jazeera is reporting that all routes to Zawiyah are now witness to the massing of government tanks and the rebels are expecting an attack

 

[dylans]

BBC reporting that the regime is offering a £250 bribe to Libyan families in an effort to stem the uprising. "Sell your freedom for £250 quid." Grubby and desperate measures.

 

[dylans]

Brookers take on Gaddafi.

"A mad wanker shouting the maddest bits of the internet aloud forever"



Couldn't resist this one either. Loony tunes Gadaffi



And, though in Arabic this one deserves posting too. Tahrir's take on Gaddafi's rain speech

 

[teqniq]

I notice there was a bit of debate about money, influence U.S and U.K. and business interests earlier. I came across this:- FACTBOX-Libyan government lending to foreign states a couple of weeks ago at the start of the Egyptian protests (I'd paste it here but the forum software buggers up the formatting). Essentially Libya is currently a net creditor and has in fact lent substantial sums to other countries ($3 billion dollars) so unless there is some catastrophic mismanagement of Libya's finances in the near future they are unlikely to need to go cap in hand to the IMF (at least as long as the oil lasts anyway). On the influence front it was being discussed on R4 this morning that we are highly likely to lose any influence that we may currently have as the people that currently wield it, the likes Blair etc here in the U.K.are too closely associated with the dictators that everybody is trying to get rid of. Apparently the paper version of The Independent has a nice graphic to explain this though I'm afraid I haven't seen it. As far as the U.S. is concerned it is seen as the end of their empire in the Middle East. Imo this is not necessarily a bad thing at all.