Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement
- Thread starter ernestolynch
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Good friend of mine is in Tripoli, working as a project manager for an engineering company. Although he has sent his wife and a kid back home on Wednesday, he is staying little longer in order to conserve current projects and deal with administration, etc... Ive just received an email from him.
Ive quick-translated it from Serbian, hence any mistakes...
"I'm good... I can say for sure its pretty quiet all around me as Im spending most of the day all over the place (Tripoli).. is unbelievable bullshit what western media are reporting about Tripoli... unbelievable... I'm also in contact with some colleagues from Misratah and Zavia (??), those reports are pretty fake as well, nothing alike what is written by these "iPad imperialists"
in Tripoli itself there are some gatherings, some demonstrations as well, probably few bullets were shot, but no air strikes, bombings, mass killings or piles of dead bodies whatsoever, or "cold blooded executions on the street" as some Englishman commented as he arrived from Tripoli yesterday... I was a witness of similar media manipulation in Serbia back in the 90s and 1999, but it seems far worse here, maybe because internet has developed more since then, or maybe because the stakes are higher (oil).. I dont know the reason, but Im seeing the facts...
All in all, Im good, I reckon I'll be off in a weeks time, unless things get worse before than..
keep in touch..."
Ive quick-translated it from Serbian, hence any mistakes...
"I'm good... I can say for sure its pretty quiet all around me as Im spending most of the day all over the place (Tripoli).. is unbelievable bullshit what western media are reporting about Tripoli... unbelievable... I'm also in contact with some colleagues from Misratah and Zavia (??), those reports are pretty fake as well, nothing alike what is written by these "iPad imperialists"
in Tripoli itself there are some gatherings, some demonstrations as well, probably few bullets were shot, but no air strikes, bombings, mass killings or piles of dead bodies whatsoever, or "cold blooded executions on the street" as some Englishman commented as he arrived from Tripoli yesterday... I was a witness of similar media manipulation in Serbia back in the 90s and 1999, but it seems far worse here, maybe because internet has developed more since then, or maybe because the stakes are higher (oil).. I dont know the reason, but Im seeing the facts...All in all, Im good, I reckon I'll be off in a weeks time, unless things get worse before than..
keep in touch..."
bi0boy
Power User
"I'm good... I can say for sure its pretty quiet all around me as Im spending most of the day all over the place (Tripoli).. is unbelievable bullshit what western media are reporting about Tripoli... unbelievable... I'm also in contact with some colleagues from Misratah and Zavia (??), those reports are pretty fake as well, nothing alike what is written by these "iPad imperialists"
He can surely say what he sees, but how can he say with such conviction that what he doesn't see hasn't happened?
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Voici le linkage:
Thomas Hofnung, in yesterday's Liberation
My French is far from perfect, but I think he's saying that at least the nucleus of these mercenary groups were people who fought for the various troublemaking factions MG backed in Africa over the years.
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
Yesterday they were saying there were 300 still there and Frank Gardner just tweeted that 300 still left. so either there are still 300 or there are still 150 still there.
But as I said before, re the numbers for the first plane out of Miteiga the BBC had 5 different figures for that, so who knows.
Here is a happy video. It's not even graphic.
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=2697
Merci beaucoup, Idris2002.
Its a fair question.... but Im almost sure he would've noticed air strikes and bombs being dropped.... he lives in Tripoli.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I would put his views down to the following things:
1. Ive been saying for days that I find it most likely that some stuff we heard has been hyped up in quite a big way, although in recent days I think the media has been pretty balanced when describing the situation in Tripoli.
2. Denial. He has reasons to hope that everything is ok, and reasons to be upset that people have left.
3. 'If I dont see it with my own eyes, its not true'. Tripoli is not exactly tiny, and even if he has been to a variety of locations there in recent days, he will hardly begin to see the whole picture for himself.
elbows
Well-Known Member
The air strikes were likely the most hyped things, driven even further by fear and news headlines one evening. Until I see some evidence to the contrary, I've been assuming that the horror stories about this stuff were not true, thank fuck.
My assumption in regards Tripoli is that unless you are in a group of protesters or a few districts where things may be a bit out of control, you may not see much. If you are protesting you may well be shot at, there is video of this from recent days but I cannot confirm where any of it was filmed.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
One thing is beyond doubt. When any groups of demonstrators gather they are shot at with live ammunition. Everything else may be total bullshit but this fact alone says volumes about the only way the regime is holding Tripoli, by brute naked violence.
Of course if the regime is so concerned about the "biased" media hyping up rumours and fantasy it can solve that in a moment by allowing the press to report freely. I won't hold my breath
Interesting observation. I disagree. But for sure, you might be right.
Btw, have you ever been anywhere near air strike? Or a bomb going off? You "notice" those things miles away. Trust me.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I know, in terms of the air strike stuff I've been questioning that news repeatedly on this thread almost since the first reports of it started coming in. Its the general claims about levels of normality in Tripoli that I question. It all depends what other extreme people have bought into, your friends opinion may be fine to counteract someone who has bought into the most extreme stories about Tripoli chaos and bloodshed, but plenty have a more balanced view to begin with and your friend seems to be making the opposite mistake to some sections of the media. Still a mistake, which I hope does not cost him.
Riklet
procrastinación
Not sure if this has been posted, but it's a pretty interesting Al Jazeera report into n is worth a watch.
I think it's pretty inspiring seeing peoples' committees being formed which can administer local government and security, and hopefully work with others without descending into tribal feuds. The very fact Libya doesn't have supposed 'strong institutions' to step in and hijack/crush their revolution means there's a lot of hope IMO, in terms of an actual mass participatory system being achieved, if Gaddafi and his sons/cronies start falling...
I think it's pretty inspiring seeing peoples' committees being formed which can administer local government and security, and hopefully work with others without descending into tribal feuds. The very fact Libya doesn't have supposed 'strong institutions' to step in and hijack/crush their revolution means there's a lot of hope IMO, in terms of an actual mass participatory system being achieved, if Gaddafi and his sons/cronies start falling...
Tripoli is very pro-Gaddafi, so Id assume it was probably as good as it gets.. It will probably get worse on daily basis. Right now there is a big chance to get control of Gadafi's oil reserves, Im sure there'll be a "good reason" very soon for some good old humanitarian intervention...
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
I believe its just another west-sponsored coup d'état. I dont buy this whole people's revolution thing. There is much greater interest in taking over Libya's oil reserves, all nicely hidden behind the overthrowing of "the evil, mad, blood thirsty dictator", which seems to be the priority at the moment. But its not. I dont believe for a second that anyone gives a flying f**k about Libyans. Specially not NATO who were happy to kill a million+ in Afghanistan & Iraq in order to supposedly introduce "western democracy"... Thats just my opinion. But lets see what happens next.
theres a great comment on western democracy here
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/members/alok_bhattacharyya/comments/
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/members/alok_bhattacharyya/comments/
Yossarian
⏭️
It would be easier to believe this source of yours if he wasn't Serbian and didn't mention the 1990s.
lets play a little game: replace word "serbian" with..... hmmm.... lets say "black"... and see for yourself how tragically idiotic your statement is.
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
Well you are certainly right about western interest in oil, but as for the first bit there is an ocean of evidence that this a is a popular revolution but no evidence at that it is a "just another west-sponsored coup d'état". That's not to say that there are high level diplomatic attempts at intervention at, one, removing the regime and two, trying to cement a new government, but these diplomatic efforts are tailing events not leading them.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
So being a Serb in Libya is equivalent to being black; in what ways is this true?
Louis MacNeice
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
There may be plenty of reasons to doubt that madshadow's friend has an accurate and comprehensive picture of what is going on in Tripoli (same as tweets coming out of Tripoli) but being Serbian isn't one of them.
Have you any evidence they are behind this, madshadow?
Have you any evidence they are behind this, madshadow?
elbows
Well-Known Member
It is possible that the western powers will try to use this situation to their advantage. However, the claim that they caused the situation utterly fails to take into account the relationship they had with Gaddafi in the last 6 or 7 years. They would have loved to get rid of him back in the 1980's, but much effort has been put into becoming friends with his regime in recent years, so why would you think they would want to get rid of him in 2011? He was spending money with the west, letting some of our companies in, his oil went to europe already, he was no threat militarily, and there was great hope that his son would increase the pace of reforms if he came to power after his father became too old. It is true that he was not the most predictable partner in the world, and there was still some understandable ill-will in the US about Lockerbie, but even so, why take the risk with all this stuff when Gaddafis regime was working ok for the west at the moment?
Given the western powers reach and shenanigans since world war 2 ended, it is not surprising that many people will see the hidden hand of the USA & friends behind many world events. But to become a prisoner of this concept, to have all events coloured by this stuff, is a tragedy. How will you recognise true people power when you see it?
Fair enough, I will do with pleasure. All I can add is - coup d'état or not, Libyans should be very careful who they get in bed with if Gaddafi is overthrown. They're best off sticking to their cash based economy - at the moment Libya has $0.00 national debt, they should stay debt free and well away from world bank's lucrative loans, weapon deals, etc... that is their only ticket to freedom. People with debt have little choice, democracy or no democracy.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Yes of course.Bengazi hasn't fallen at all, neither has most of the country. Libyans haven't just waded through blood with bare hands against military bases firing live ammunition at them at the cost of over 1000 lives. It's all made up. The disgusting photos of people with their heads literally blown off is all CGI. It's all the CIA and Al Jazeera. They love Gadaffi.
And you are a fucking idiot
Interesting however how at a time when the regime is mounting a propaganda counter offensive useful idiots like this crawl out of the woodwork. It happened in Egypt too. As soon as Mubarak started mobilising his brownshirts we startsed getting these idiots claiming he was "popular really" . Ok. If Gadaffi is so popular in Tripoli why is all independent media banned (and no, regime organised press visits don't count) and why is he shooting unarmed demonstrators dead every time they raise a voice against the regime?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Good news via AJE:
Bad News:
I am concerned that reports of the extent that Gaddafi has lost control in the west and of the military have been overdone. As such I cannot dismiss the fears that have been growing in Libya that the regime is planning something big. They may not have the capability to do so, but maybe they do. Fingers crossed eh.
Meanwhile I hear Obama has said its time for Gaddafi to leave, not looked at the details of this myself yet.
Bad News:
I am concerned that reports of the extent that Gaddafi has lost control in the west and of the military have been overdone. As such I cannot dismiss the fears that have been growing in Libya that the regime is planning something big. They may not have the capability to do so, but maybe they do. Fingers crossed eh.
Meanwhile I hear Obama has said its time for Gaddafi to leave, not looked at the details of this myself yet.
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