Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Louis MacNeice]

No it isn't. Just because this looks like a revolution, doesn't mean it is one. Ukraine and Georgia looked much the same.

Where did I say it's a revolution. What I said is it's not 'just the US Government re-arranging their puppets'.

Louis MacNeice

 

[butchersapron]

There's definitely plenty working as instructors and technicians at Umm Aitiqah/Metiga AFB on the Flogger/Hip/Candid squadrons. I doubt they sober up enough to go on ops though.

That's Air Force?

 

[phildwyer]

....and Louis McNeice calls himself a journalist!

Then again, what else could he possibly be?

 

[elbows]

Can anyone report on what Gaddafi actually did on state TV last night. I had gone to bed and I can't see much reference to it on this thread. Is it right that he just appeared and did not say much except something like "you see I am not in Venezuela" ...

Basically yes. Is it really that hard to find out exactly what he said on the net?

Anyways, back to me being depressed and worried about the fate of foreigners in Libya. This time some stuff from the BBC:

1132: There are around 50,000 Bangladeshis working in Libya, according to official figures, many of them working for foreign construction firms. Speaking to the BBC, Bangladeshi Foreign Minister Dipu Moni said preparations were under way to evacuate its nationals: "Definitely, to begin with, to safer places and if [it] is necessary to evacuate them from the country, then we will have to because, as a government, we have to take steps to ensure that our people who are there - that they are safe."

1124: Other foreign workers are struggling to keep safe or leave Libya: On Monday, a Bangladeshi worker in the port city of Darnah, east of Benghazi, said as many as 2,500 foreign workers had been placed under house arrest by anti-government protesters. Speaking to the BBC Bengali service, Shafiyuddin Biswas, who works for a South Korean construction company, said: "There are around 2,000 people working in this unit, including people from Nepal, Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines. But we have been kept in buildings for the last three days. There is no drinking water here. We are in a terrible situation."

 

[elbows]

Stuff from twitter user SultanAlQassemi

Next tweets will the be the names of the three army generals to keep an eye out for in #Libya for a possible military coup against Gaddafi.

1- Abu Bakr Younis Jaber, Chief of Libyan Army since the late 1970's, long time Gaddafi ally, now rumoured to be under house arrest. #Libya

2- Lieutenant Abdel Fatah Younis El Obeidi, Minister of Public Security, rumoured to have joined the protests. Whereabouts unknown. #Libya

3- Al Mahdi Al Arabi, Deputy Chief of Staff, rumoured to be under house arrest, also rumoured to have lead a failed coup attempt.

 

[dylans]

None of your business.

more cowardice from you

 

[quimcunx]

thread mercenaries.

I think you are right sadly. Worse than simplistic this "foreign mercenary narrative" is a very dangerous one too for thousands of black Libyans and innocent foreign workers too. It's not without precident. A little research shows a deep rooted racism in Libya.



http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=8411733

I think we should see claims of "foreign mercenaries in this context and should exercise a good degree of scepticism regarding such claims

Just wanted to point out I have seen and heard claims of white mercenaries too. But, yes, stories are more than likely going to be skewed by local bias. I'd have thought there would also be a degree of racism towards white/westerners, but without accusations of drug trafficking etc. and I'm guessing that white westerners are more likely to be in better paid jobs and not subject to aggression and violence.

 

[TruXta]

Get a fucking room will you guys? I for one couldn't give a shit about your allegiances, and there are other and better places to have a sectarian bunfight.

 

[Streathamite]

All you derailers desist now!

seconded. Partly my fault, tho.
There's a terrific vid on al-Jazz;can someone put it up?

 

[DownwardDog]

That's Air Force?

Yes. Interestingly, most of the the flying so far seem to have been done by the Mirage F1s from 1015 squadron at Tobruk/Okba bin Nafi AFB. The LARAF only have very few of these (2 less after today, LOL) but they have recently been upgraded and restored to service by Dassault in 2007-9.

 

[dylans]

thread mercenaries.




Just wanted to point out I have seen and heard claims of white mercenaries too. But, yes, stories are more than likely going to be skewed by local bias. I'd have thought there would also be a degree of racism towards white/westerners, but without accusations of drug trafficking etc. and I'm guessing that white westerners are more likely to be in better paid jobs and not subject to aggression and violence.

I am suspicious of the whole claim. First because a regime with an internal security force of 100.000 doesn't need to hire foreign mercs but also because of the depth of racism in Libya and the way these claims fit into that prevailing attitudes. Just doing a little research into racism in Libya was quite depressing with numerous accounts of widespread violence and state encouraged discrimination against both foreign workers and black Libyans in recent years. We know that such racism exists in other Arab African nations such as Sudan too.

Perhaps one of the harshest incidents that showed black Libyans how they were treated differently were the acts of violence that broke out years ago against Africans in Libya. Because of a certain problem with immigrant Africans, Libyans would hit and assault anyone with black skin, including black Libyans themselves, who were assaulted by mistake. A poor citizen who was attacked had to yell 'I'm Libyan! I'm Libyan!' Just note the absurdity and humiliation that black Libyans were exposed to during that period of time."

http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/blog/2010/01/06/feature-03

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Get a fucking room will you guys? I for one couldn't give a shit about your allegiances, and there are other and better places to have a sectarian bunfight.

I've booked a room here.

Apologies - Louis MacNeice

 

[DrRingDing]

Fisk's rant in the Independent today....

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...or-and-oppression-on-his-way-out-2221687.html

 

[TruXta]

I've booked a room here.

Apologies - Louis MacNeice

Good lad.

 

[elbows]

Its becoming harder and harder for me to assume all the stories emerging today of doctors being killed, hospitals being bombed, people suffering rape, are telling us much about the reality as opposed to the climate of fear. Appaulingly little confirmed or even detailed/semi-confirmed news today.

 

[quimcunx]

I am suspicious of the whole claim. First because a regime with an internal security force of 100.000 doesn't need to hire foreign mercs but also because of the depth of racism in Libya and the way these claims fit into that prevailing attitudes. Just doing a little research into racism in Libya was quite depressing with numerous accounts of widespread violence and state encouraged discrimination against both foreign workers and black Libyans in recent years. We know that such racism exists in other Arab African nations such as Sudan too.



http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/blog/2010/01/06/feature-03

I suppose we need to know a bit more about how Libya's army is made up then? Are there white and sub-saharan africans in the army? What I wondered about before was did Gaddafi suspect that he might not have the army loyalty he'd need.

What does make me suspicious of it is the $12k they were paid. Not sure how people know this but everyone in Libya knows it's $12k.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Lybian ambassador to The USA and his counterpart in India have resigned. They refuse to serve the dicatator any more. An indication perhaps that they believe Gaddafi can't win.

The ambassador for India claims his decision to resign is based on information from his neighbours back home of Foreign mercenaries killing people in the streets. Sounds a bit contradictory, perhaps he meant to say, in the poor areas and not in the rich areas where ambassadors would reside when at home.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Can anyone report on what Gaddafi actually did on state TV last night. I had gone to bed and I can't see much reference to it on this thread. Is it right that he just appeared and did not say much except something like "you see I am not in Venezuela" ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/feb/22/muammar-gaddafi-tv-address-video

make of it what you will!

 

[elbows]

I suppose we need to know a bit more about how Libya's army is made up then? Are there white and sub-saharan africans in the army? What I wondered about before was did Gaddafi suspect that he might not have the army loyalty he'd need.

What does make me suspicious of it is the $12k they were paid. Not sure how people know this but everyone in Libya knows it's $12k.

Similar confidence in the amount thugs were paid was evident in Egypt too.

I've found no useful info about Egypian army, short of the apparent fact that in many ways it wasnt structured like a traditional army.

And I dont think its jsut a question of what nationalities may be in the army, but the wide range of skin colours of Libyans themselves, something some of them seem to be in denial about.

As a related aside, and as I mentioned last night, do a google image search for Gadaffis female bodyguards and you will see a wide array of skin colours (and uniforms!).

 

[Divisive Cotton]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/feb/22/muammar-gaddafi-tv-address-video

make of it what you will!

Waving the umbrella in the air is almost like a work of conceptual art... perhaps when he has "retired" from being the Libyan dictator Tate Modern can employ him as a new art installation in the foyer

 

[Kaka Tim]

I thought it was a Bob Dylan video at first.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Al Jazeera Tweets may begin to get more information as they say people are coming over the border to Egypt carrying memory sticks containing images etc, which they have rushed to journalists.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/africa/2011/02/22/live-blog-libya-feb-22

 

[Idris2002]

Lybian ambassador to The USA and his counterpart in India have resigned. They refuse to serve the dicatator any more. An indication perhaps that they believe Gaddafi can't win.

The ambassador for India claims his decision to resign is based on information from his neighbours back home of Foreign mercenaries killing people in the streets. Sounds a bit contradictory, perhaps he meant to say, in the poor areas and not in the rich areas where ambassadors would reside when at home.

Elite families in the ME will have servants from the poor areas - maybe that's where the ambassador got his info from?

 

[likesfish]

the Egyptian army I exercised with was an odd set up lots of officers doing jobs in the British army a L/cpl or private would be expected to do.
conscripts used more as servants and cleaners than trained for any military role. They seemed really afraid of the desert which tbf is probably a good idea but you'd think a military based in a desert country would hire some bedu to learn how to work in the desert?

 

[butchersapron]

Army having guns taken - suggestion they're mercs (apols if already posted, i've lost track).

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF8LCSilU0U[/video]

 

[Anudder Oik]

Selection of interesting tweets from Al Jazeera from feb 21 that people possibly missed.

2:00am: A group of Libyan army officers have reportedly issued a statement urging fellow soldiers to “join the people” and help remove Gaddafi from power

1:20am: Al Jazeera Arabic reports that adverts appear in Guinea and Nigeria offering would-be mercenaries up to US $2000 dollars per day

12:59am: Financial Times reports oil groups are preparing to shut down operations in Libya

12:53am: Dozens of students and political activists have been arrested in Zimbabwe for watching Al Jazeera's reports on uprisings in north Africa, reports the New York Times.

 

[Idris2002]

I hope this isn't a derailment, but the stuff about African mercs is quite credible given that Sierra Leone, Liberia and Ivory Coast all have large numbers of veterans of their respective civil wars whose employment situation since peace (of a sort) came to their countries hasn't been great.

 

[Tankus]

"I am satisfied, because I was speaking in front of the youth in the Green Square tonight, but the rain came praise to God, it is a good omen.
I want to clarify for them that I am in Tripoli not in Venezuela. Do not believe these channels -- they are dogs. Goodbye."

.......

 

[Lo Siento.]

couldn't see an english translation but Fidel Castro continuing the run of Left-wing "friends of the people" who are supporting their authoritarian mates over the populations of their country

Se podrá estar o no de acuerdo con el Gaddafi. El mundo ha sido invadido con todo tipo de noticias, empleando especialmente los medios masivos de información. Habrá que esperar el tiempo necesario para conocer con rigor cuánto hay de verdad o mentira, o una mezcla de hechos de todo tipo que, en medio del caos, se produjeron en Libia. Lo que para mí es absolutamente evidente es que al Gobierno de Estados Unidos no le preocupa en absoluto la paz en Libia, y no vacilará en dar a la OTAN la orden de invadir ese rico país, tal vez en cuestión de horas o muy breves días.

You can agree with Gaddafi or not. The world has been flooded with all sorts of stories, particularly in the mass media. We'll have to wait to truly know how much truth there is in the mixture of facts that are coming out of the chaos in Libya. What for me is clearly evident is that the US government doesn't care one jot about peace in Libya and won't hesitate to order NATO troops into this rich country, perhaps in a matter of hours or a few short days. [my quick trans]

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I hope this isn't a derailment, but the stuff about African mercs is quite credible given that Sierra Leone, Liberia and Ivory Coast all have large numbers of veterans of their respective civil wars whose employment situation since peace (of a sort) came to their countries hasn't been great.

Surely a sign of absolute desperation though, no? I would have thought that importing foreign mercs would antagonise the Libyan army rather than win them over.