Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Ibn Khaldoun]

. . . kicking off now in main street Tripoli.

 

[dylans]

. . . kicking off now in main street Tripoli.

Can you please stop repeating unconfirmed twitter rumours please. There are foreign reporters in Tripoli, why have none of them confirmed any of these sensationalist claims of fighting in the streets and rebel boats etc. We know from past experience that twitter is totally unreliable (mainly because the rebels have lied through their teeth time and time again). i agree that Tripoli is under siege and it looks like the endgame but come on, a little bit of common sense pleasAe. The only confirmed reports are that Zlitan and Zawiya have fallen

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Some of them have appeared on twitter tbh, but the most twitterish source I'm using is Libyanswithoutborders. Hopefully these journalists will start reporting a bit more. The thing is, even those who don't just stay in their hotels won't necessarily know what's going on when they're hearing gunshots or go to check it out, as it were.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I thought you had me on ignore?

Nope, when we moved to the new boards everyone was taken off ignore. Any chance of you actually answering the question? Or are you just gonna do the usual and make utterly meaningless "points"?

 

[Lock&Light]

I'm capable of maintaining a decision even without tools. I still have you on ignore, so there is indeed no chance of my answering any of your questions.

 

[elbows]

Whats happened in the Tunisia border area?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14602274

Tunisian security forces have fought a gun battle with armed men in pick-up trucks near the Libyan border, officials say.
The gunmen were reportedly driving vehicles with Libyan licence plates.
The violence broke out late on Friday and lasted into early Saturday, with Tunisian officials saying some of the attackers had been injured.

 

[elbows]

Sounds like rebels withdrew from the oil terminal again after being bombarded, but gains in some other key locations yesterday have been confirmed, albeit not with control of every street in some of them.

Sustained gunfire reported in Tripoli tonight, by a variety of journalists as well as the usual rumour-mill.

 

[elbows]

The latest is that there are reports of anti-Gaddafi people on the streets of some parts of Tripoli, and that the government has sent text messages asking people to go onto the streets and deal with armed agents.

I cannot speak the language so cannot confirm, but it is being said on twitter that an AlJazeera Arabic reporter has a walkie talkie that is broadcasting Gaddafi forces Tripoli communications, and some of it has been broadcast on the channel.

 

[elbows]

Sounds like the regime are having a press conference where they are saying that Tripoli is safe and under control.

 

[elbows]

Tweets from a CNN journalist which expand slightly on the government line currently being pedalled :
Matthew Chance
@mchancecnn

As shooting continues outside #Rixos, inside govt Spox says situation in #Tripoli "under control"

Moussa: small armed gangs in several areas of #Tripoli responsible for violence

 

[elbows]

One similarity with the last days before the fall of Baghdad: Earlier today government minders took journalists to Tripoli airport to prove that rebels were not there. And indeed, rebels were not there, contrary to a recent rumour.

 

[elbows]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4421258...a-rebels-launch-assault-tripoli/#.TlAq9WZFukd

Libyan rebels launched an assault early Sunday on the capital of Tripoli, taking control of the airport, amid unconfirmed reports that leader Moammar Gadhafi had fled, NBC News reported.
"Zero hour has begun," a rebel commander told NBC News.
Rebels were fighting in at least four areas of Tripoli, NBC News said.
Protesters demanding the departure of Gadhafi took to the capital streets, Reuters said. Heavy mortar fire and sustained gunfire was growing intense, witnesses said.

Lots more in the full article, but I wouldn't take too much of it at face value just yet.

 

[elbows]

A BBC journalist in Tripoli:

http://twitter.com/#!/matthewwprice

Heavy and sustained bursts of gunfire still sounding in #Tripoli Right now I hear a very long burst of heavy fire. #Libya

 

[elbows]

Another reporter who is in Tripoli at the moment:

http://twitter.com/#!/JomanaCNN

sounds of gunfire & explosions in the capital #Tripoli -ive spent weeks here now & in May... 1st time i experience this. #Libya

 

[elbows]

This map showing Tripoli's districts may be of use when trying to follow events:

http://twitpic.com/51kljo/full

Twitter rumours about Tripoli have now reached fever pitch, with some people throwing around names of districts that are 'under rebel control', but there are also reports of lots of dead rebels. Pretty much the full spectrum of possibilities are being claimed, ranging from 'it was just some unarmed people of Tripoli who decided to protest and got shot by Gaddafi forces', to 'arms have been smuggled in to people in Tripoli who are now mounting this action' to 'fighters arrived by boat'.

Whether this is the beginning of a full push into Tripoli, or is a more limited operation designed to test and rattle the security apparatus within Tripoli, or something far less co-ordinated, remains to be seen.

 

[free spirit]

now that the rebels seem to have control of approx 2/3 of the country, I was wondering if Dylans or anyone else could point us in the direction of all the reports of mass killings, reprisals and torture of civilians he and others that were apparently an inevitable consequence of the rebels being assisted to beat gadhafi militarily?

such reports seem to be missing from the last few pages of this thread.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

See? It's all been confirmed, right down to the boats on Sat morning. That's because the Western press is much slower at reporting the conflict than sources inside the country.

Now we know large areas of Tripoli are already free! The ultimately weak and unpopular government hasn't got much of a fight to put up, let alone from its supposedly dedicated civilian support. What is left of the regime and its media are haywire and trying to pretend none of this is happening . . . Oh joy!

However, there has been a lot of killing, especially by govt forces using anti-aircraft weapons on people (as they did on protesters in Tripoli in the first weeks). We can only hope they will relinquish now, realising it's hopeless, and little bloodshed will follow in the coming hours.

 

[dylans]

now that the rebels seem to have control of approx 2/3 of the country, I was wondering if Dylans or anyone else could point us in the direction of all the reports of mass killings, reprisals and torture of civilians he and others that were apparently an inevitable consequence of the rebels being assisted to beat gadhafi militarily?

such reports seem to be missing from the last few pages of this thread.

There are loads of examples of human rights abuses by rebels forces, including collective punishment, looting, random burning of homes, killings and beatings of prisoners, torture and racist attacks on anyone with black skin. despite your blinkered refusal to see them. Perhaps you could show me a single post of yours where you have condemned such abuses

"The rebel conduct was disturbing," said Fred Abrahams, a special adviser to Human Rights Watch (HRW).
"We documented fairly widespread looting of homes and shops, the burning of some homes of suspected Gaddafi supporters and - most disturbingly - the vandalisation of three medical clinics [and] local small hospitals, including the theft of some of the medical equipment."

Rebel forces seized control of al-Awaniya, Rayayinah, and Zawiyat al-Bagul in mid-June 2011, ousting government forces that had used the towns as a base for attacks against rebel-held territory - some of them indiscriminate attacks on civilian-inhabited areas. Rebel forces captured al-Qawalish on July

They also raise the prospect that the NATO-backed rebel advances, which have stalled or slowed to a crawl, risk being accompanied by further retaliatory crimes that could inflame tribal or factional grievances, endangering the civilians that NATO was mandated to protect.
Rebel officials in the mountains have played down the looting and arson in recent days. In an interview on Sunday, Col. Mukhtar Farnana, the region’s senior commander, said that reprisals were not sanctioned and that he did not know any details about them.
But Human Rights Watch said the same commander shared details with its investigators and conceded that rebels had abused people suspected of being collaborators as towns changed hands.
“People who stayed in the towns were working with the army,” the organization quoted him as saying. “Houses that were robbed and broken into were ones that the army had used, including for ammunition storage.” The commander added, “Those people who were beaten were working for Qaddafi’s brigades.”
He also said that his forces were under orders not to loot, and that if it were not for those orders “people would have burned these towns down to the ground.”
A rebel near Qawalish on Tuesday confirmed Colonel Farnana’s view, saying that the rebels had instructions not to “break anything or burn houses,” but that orders ran up against the realities of waging war with a nonprofessional, quasi-military force.
“Before we liberate an area, we do have intelligence information about the people who were helping the army in the local town,” said the rebel, Hatam Idris. “So we do know these people, and their homes. And when we liberate a town, we go straightaway to those homes.”

More than 100 Africans from various Sub-Sahara states are believed to have been killed by Libyan rebels and their supporters.
According to Somali refugees in Libya, at least five Somalis from Somaliland and Somalia were executed in Tripoli and Benghazi by anti-Gaddafi mobs. Dozens of refugees and immigrants workers from Ethiopia, Eritrea, Ghana, Nigeria, Chad, Mali and Niger have been killed, some of them were led into the desert and stabbed to death. Black Libyan men receiving medical care in hospitals in Benghazi were reportedly abducted by armed rebels. They are part of more than 200 African immigrants held in secret locations by the rebels.

“Life in Benghazi now is very dangerous for blacks,” says Jonny, who fled after Qadhafi’s forces were routed by defectors from a local security brigade and pro-democracy protesters, who took full control of the city. “Walking around town can get you killed. I had to run for my life after my friend from Cameroon was killed because his dreadlocks were seen as suspicious.”

"I am a worker, not a fighter. They took me from my house and [raped] my wife," he said, gesturing with his hands. Before he could say much more, a pair of guards told him to shut up and hustled him through the steel doors of a cell block, which quickly slammed behind them

Fortuntately, human rights watch don't share your rose tinted view of a rebel force that has demonstrated little concern for human rights. In their assessment of rebel behaviour in newly occupied areas HRW state

We're deeply worried about how they might behave and treat civilians in those areas.

http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-execute-black-immigrants-while-forces-kidnap-others-20586

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/13/world/africa/13libya.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14135530

 

[Divisive Cotton]

There are loads of examples of human rights abuses by rebels forces, including collective punishment, looting, random burning of homes, killings and beatings of prisoners, torture and racist attacks on anyone with black skin. despite your blinkered refusal to see them. Perhaps you could show me a single post of yours where you have condemned such abuses

Come on dylans, there haven't been "loads of examples of human rights abuses". There were a couple of recorded incidents in the Western Mountains and some incidents in Misrata (captured soldiers being shot in the foot) but on the whole they have proven themselves to be observers of basic humanitarian concerns during the war. Unlike Gadaffis men who have been aimlessly firing grad rockets and cluster bombs into civilian areas and rounding up en masse political oponents

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Correct, DV. You even see videos of them giving captured soldiers water, as opposed to Gaddafi's lot who just kill everyone. It's a wonder they've managed such restraint considering the brutality of the regime's forces . . . over decades at that.

 

[dylans]

Come on dylans, there haven't been "loads of examples of human rights abuses". There were a couple of recorded incidents in the Western Mountains and some incidents in Misrata (captured soldiers being shot in the foot) but on the whole they have proven themselves to be observers of basic humanitarian concerns during the war. Unlike Gadaffis men who have been aimlessly firing grad rockets and cluster bombs into civilian areas and rounding up en masse political oponents

"A couple of incidents"? You're deliberately deluding yourself. There have been reports of mass killings of black people and captured loyalist troops since this civil war started. In fact black skinned Libyans and foreign workers have been persecuted in every area held by rebels. You refuse to acknowledge that because it doesn't fit your good guy/bad guy narrative and frankly that is shameful. Gross human rights abuses have been documented by both Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Your remarks about Gaddafi are irrelevant, first because I have consistantly condemned the Gaddafi regime since the beginning and second because the fact that Gaddafi forces commit atrocities does not excuse atrocities by other forces, especially when those forces claim to be fighting for democracy. Human rights abuses should be condemned wherever they occur and not denied to suit a political agenda

The streaks of blood, smeared along the sides of this impromptu mass grave suggested a rushed operation, a hurried attempt to dispose of the victims.

Who the men were and what happened to them, close to the Libyan rebels' western front line town of Al-Qawalish in the Nafusa Mountains, remains unknown.

But the evidence of a brutal end were clear. One of the corpses had been cleanly decapitated, while the trousers of another had been ripped down to his ankles, a way of humiliating a dead enemy.

The green uniforms were the same as those worn by loyalists fighting for Col. Muammer Gaddafi in Libya's civil war. No one from the rebel side claimed the corpses, or declared their loved ones missing.

Human Rights Watch last week said that had looted homes, shops and hospitals and beaten captives as they advanced.
The Daily Telegraph found homes in the village of al-Awaniya ransacked, and shops and schools smashed and looted. The town, now empty, was inhabited by the Mashaashia, a traditionally loyalist tribe that has long been involved in land disputes with surrounding towns.

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch both said there were documented cases of extra-judicial killings by rebel forces, including deaths in custody under torture.
In particular, in the early phases of the uprising, loyalists and sub-Saharan Africans accused of being mercenaries were lynched. Since then, men in rebel-held areas suspected of being members of Col Gaddafi's security services have been taken from the homes, and subsequently found dead with their hands tied.

We have come across a number of cases of executions of suspected Gaddafi fighters in both the east and the west," said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director of HRW.

A group of 15 to 22 Libyan army soldiers captured in Darha were reportedly executed in the village of Makhtuba, 20 kilometres (12 miles) east of Darna. According to a widely circulated story, the men were claimed to have been "executed by their own officers for disobeying orders".
Another group of 15 dark-skinned Libyan prisoners was publicly executed by hanging in front of the al-Baida courthouse.

On 17 February, the Al Bayda hospital admitted two injured men, one of black complexion, and the other of olive complexion. The men were accused of fighting against the rebels. A hospital doctor claimed that the black man was murdered and hung by an angry mob that had gathered around the hospital. The other injured man was reportedly beaten, shot and returned to the emergency room.

Sudanese refugees from Eastern Libya have reported that a twelve-year-old Sudanese girl was raped by armed men that forced them out of their homes. A Gambian man shown to journalists by anti-Gadaffi forces reported that he had been dragged from his house by three armed men who accused him of being a mercenary of Gadaffi and raped his wife. The UN HRC also reported cases of sub-Saharan migrant women being raped and kidnapped by Libyans.

A Turkish oil worker reported witnessing the murder of 70 to 80 Sudanese and Chadian guest workers with pruning shears and axes by Libyans who accused them of being Gaddafi mercenaries.
HRW's Peter Bouckaert visited Al Bayda where 156 supposed mercenaries were being held captive. He reported that these men are actually black Libyans from Southern Libya. .

Killings of unarmed migrant workers by rebels have been described. On the 18 April, a British reporter (Kim Sengupta of The Independant who had just arrived at Benghazi by sea from Misrat described the sufferings of large numbers of migrant workers trapped in Misrata in a broadcast on Radio 4 After mentioning casualties during government forces attack he said about the migrant workers that "…some have also died in clashes with the, err, rebel fighters. They were protesting about the conditions, demanding that they should be repatriated and on a couple of occasions this has led to the rebels opening fire and, err, people dying."

The above is are a fraction of the atrocities caused by rebel forces. The list of crimes goes on and on and on. Atrocities that you shamefully dismiss as "a couple of incidents"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rrying-questions-about-Libyas-rebel-army.html

http://www.npr.org/2011/02/25/134065767/-African-Migrants-Say-They-Face-Hostility-From-Libyans

 

[free spirit]

3 out of those 5 articles you link to are from the same date, referring to the same HRW report, and the other 2 are from February and early March when this was more mob rule than any semblance of an army with a command structure.

Seeing as you quote HRW, let's have a look at some of the other things they've been saying shall we?

Over the past two months, Human Rights Watch has visited rebel-held detainees in Benghazi, Misrata, and Zintan, interviewing the detainees and the opposition officials holding them. In all three opposition-held cities, the authorities allowed Human Rights Watch unrestricted access, including private meetings with detainees.
As of May 28, 2011, opposition forces were detaining about 330 civilians and combatants – 118 in Benghazi, 160 in Misrata, and 52 in Zintan. Detainees in some eastern Libyan towns have been released or transferred to Benghazi after interrogation. Additional detainees may be held in other opposition controlled cities and towns.
The exact number of civilian detainees – non-fighters, most of them accused of association with Gaddafi’s internal security apparatus or Revolutionary Committees – remains unclear because the opposition authorities do not always distinguish them from captured fighters. The Revolutionary Committees are an influential ideological organization Gaddafi has used to enforce control.
In Benghazi, at least 41 of the detainees as of May 28 were civilians. Human Rights Watch interviewed 20 of them privately between March and May. None complained of mistreatment in detention or showed signs of physical abuse, but four alleged they had been physically abused when they were captured. None had ¬seen a lawyer or been able to challenge their detention before an independent judicial authority.

Human Rights Watch documented one apparent death in custody by a volunteer group in Baida. Muhammad el-Dabr, a Jordanian citizen suspected of spreading pro-Gaddafi propaganda, died during interrogation in Baida on April 30, two people with direct knowledge of the case told Human Rights Watch. A person who viewed el-Dabr’s body said it showed signs of torture.
According to documents viewed by Human Rights Watch, a volunteer group called the February 17 Security Committee held el-Dabr from April 27 to 30. The group is one of seven volunteer security groups in the city that opposition authorities recently brought under their jurisdiction. An investigation is under way, and a local court has issued arrest warrants for two suspects, the Baida authorities told Human Rights Watch.

[link]

and the TNC's statement / code of conduct on the subject

The TNC would like to reiterate that its policies strictly adhere to the ‘Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of Prisoners of War’ as well as with the ethical and moral values of the Libyan society. The council conveys its regret for some individual incidents that had occurred during the first few days of the revolution and guarantees that this would not be repeated. Clear codes of conduct have been issued from the National Interim council and include:

1. Any Libyan caught whether they be military personnel or citizens recruited to cause sabotage and spread chaos, should not be titled as ‘Prisoner’ but as a Libyan brother (or sister) who has been deceived.
2. All prisoners and detainees will be provided with food, water and necessary medical assistance and will be treated humanely, without the use of aggression in any form. The TNC will vow to punish those who violate this code and will allow local and international human rights organizations to freely visit and talk to the detainees and prisoners at any time.
3. Detainees and prisoners will be allowed to contact their relatives and arrangements will be made to allow them to return home without any restrictions or conditions.
4. The Transitional National Interim Council reaffirms its strict compliance with the above and calls on all Libyan citizens to strictly abide by these codes.

1. [link]

Rebel abuses may pale in comparison with the atrocities by Libyan government forces, but they require immediate attention.

[link]

the last quote really sums it up, yes there have been some isolated cases of abuse, extra judicial killings and punishments, but these pale in comparison to what Gadhafi has been doing. IMO the military support of western countries to the rebels has given the rebels a huge incentive to prevent such abuses as far as possible, as they know that western support would disappear if they were seen to be allowing or encouraging widespread reprisals, and not respecting basic human rights.

Abuses happen in war whatever army it is doing the fighting, but there is a major difference between the systematic deliberate and authorised killing of civilians, shelling of civilian areas and hospitals, and mass arrests and torture of prisoners of Gadhafi's regime, vs the picture emerging from rebel advances of occasional incidents of unauthorised abuses with a civilian led ntc attempting to assert it's authority, act to prevent such abuses, and issue arrest warrants for those who've carried out such abuses.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

"A couple of incidents"? You're deliberately deluding yourself. There have been reports of mass killings of black people and captured loyalist troops since this civil war started. In fact black skinned Libyans and foreign workers have been persecuted in every area held by rebels. You refuse to acknowledge that because it doesn't fit your good guy/bad guy narrative and frankly that is shameful. Gross human rights abuses have been documented by both Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Your remarks about Gaddafi are irrelevant, first because I have consistantly condemned the Gaddafi regime since the beginning and second because the fact that Gaddafi forces commit atrocities does not excuse atrocities by other forces, especially when those forces claim to be fighting for democracy. Human rights abuses should be condemned wherever they occur and not denied to suit a political agenda

I totally stand by my previous statement. There have been some reports of human rights abuses not "loads" as you state.

 

[dylans]

Who are you trying to convince with this bullshit?. Rebel atrocities are well documented. I have listed over a dozen myself. And neither can they be dismissed as simply a consequence of war. Many of these atrocities, such as the abuse of black Libyans and foreign workers, are ideologically inspired.You are engaging in atrocity denial. A pretty disgusting thing to do IMO.

FRANCE 24 journalist David Thomson reported that he had witnessed events in Libya that confirmed Human Rights Watch (HRW) allegations of looting, arson and abuse of civilians by the rebels.
Thomson, who was following the rebel forces operating in the Nafusa mountains south of Tripoli, said he saw “scenes of devastation” behind the front lines.
“I saw villages burned and looted,” he said. “And as the HRW report says, some people, mostly black Africans believed to be fighting as mercenaries for the Gaddafi regime, were beaten and sometimes executed.”
He added: “The rebel forces may not be quite as clean-cut as the coalition is making them out to be.”
HRW said two of the towns in question were home to a tribe close to Gaddafi: "Al-Awaniya and Zawiyat al-Bagul are home to members of the Mesheshiya tribe, known for its loyalty to the Libyan government.”

It's interesting too that many of the people in the path of the rebels advance don't share your optimistic view of the rebels commitment to human rights

Zlitan, captured by Libyan rebel forces on Friday, is now a ghost town, the population having fled, with more animals than people roaming its empty streets.

Amid shuttered shops and locked homes, horses roam the highways and ducks and geese waddle through the back streets, untended by their owners.

The few locals who venture out give nervous V-for-Victory signs to passing rebel patrols. "He's for us now," said rebel fighter Norwan Elgadidi, who returned to fight for his native Misrata from his home in Canada, as a brown-shirted man stood waving from his doorway. "But when Gaddafi was here you bet he was for him."

http://www.france24.com/en/20110713...e-allegations-human-rights-watch-gaddafi-nato

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/middle-east-live/2011/aug/21/libya-syria-israel-middle-east-unrest

 

[free spirit]

Who are you trying to convince with this bullshit?. Rebel atrocities are well documented. I have listed over a dozen myself. And neither can they be dismissed as simply a consequence of war. Many of these atrocities, such as the abuse of black Libyans and foreign workers, are ideologically inspired.You are engaging in atrocity denial. A pretty disgusting thing to do IMO.

there has been nothing remotely like your apocalyptic predictions of inter tribal warfare, and mass attrocities, and the situation has largely improved as time has passed and the rebels have become more organised, rather than degenerating further as you predicted.

It's interesting too that many of the people in the path of the rebels advance don't share your optimistic view of the rebels commitment to human rights

they've been subject to gadhafi's propaganda for one thing, and are as likely to be fearful of gadhafi's forces shelling the town indiscriminately once it's taken as they are of the rebel forces themselves, added the the fairly normal desire of civilians to flee from the immediate scene of fighting in order not to get caught in the cross fire.

The test really will be whether they come back or not once this is over, and how they're treated then.

It's also fairly notable that there's no mention in that report of mass killings, mass graves or anything actually untoward occurring in that report. How do you square that with your position?

 

[dylans]

there has been nothing remotely like your apocalyptic predictions of inter tribal warfare, and mass attrocities, and the situation has largely improved as time has passed and the rebels have become more organised, rather than degenerating further as you predicted.

We don't know the scale of atrocities committed away from the eyes of Western reporters but it is safe to assume that the horrific reports we have recieved are the tip of the ice berg. It is you and rebel apologists like you who have painted a scenerio of a regime with no support whatsoever and one where the rebels would be welcomed with open arms wherever they appear. This is clearly not the case and I will say this. If you think Tripoli will happily recieve these NATO rebels with flowers and kissesyou are deluding yourself. Neither will it fall quickly. Despite the twitter rumours of impending fall, all indications are that Tripoli is about to face a long and bloody siege and street to street fighting. Many loyalist soldiers have family in Tripoli and have nothing to lose by fighting to the death. The Capital is armed and has had time to entrench. The battle for Tripoli is going to be long and bloody.

they've been subject to gadhafi's propaganda for one thing, and are as likely to be fearful of gadhafi's forces shelling the town indiscriminately once it's taken as they are of the rebel forces themselves, added the the fairly normal desire of civilians to flee from the immediate scene of fighting in order not to get caught in the cross fire.

Pathetic and insulting projection of your own desires onto a society far more complex than you wish to acknowledge. You present a picture where the rebels are universally loved and the regime universally loathed and then are forced to invent explanations as to why the populations of entire towns flee in terror at the prospect of rebel advance. They are fleeing because they are loyal to the regime, they are recognised by the rebels as loyal to the regime and thus fear revenge attacks by an enemy rebel force that has committed atrocities across the country.

It's also fairly notable that there's no mention in that report of mass killings, mass graves or anything actually untoward occurring in that report. How do you square that with your position?

Mass killings of whom? They have all fled. There are plenty of reports of mass graves and revenge attacks by rebel forces, the telegraph for a start but many others too. Really, this argument is pointless and rather distasteful frankly, its like arguing with a holocaust denier and only slightly less unpleasant

 

[free spirit]

its like arguing with a holocaust denier

fuck off you obnoxious twat.

 

[dylans]

fuck off you obnoxious twat.

You are deliberately denying or excusing gross human rights abuses by rebel forces.That makes you no different to those who wish to deny atrocities in Chechnya or Sri Lanka or Gaza or indeed Nazi Germany. You tell me, what is the difference between denying the mass murder of Jews and denying the mass murder of black people? You are an atrocity denier and I can't think of anything more obnoxious than that and all your sweary tantrums won't change that.

A couple of photos of black people definately not being mistreated by rebels

The Wall Street Journal story, reports that the “rebels” who’re, supposedly, fighting to save the Libyan people, have unleashed a wave of racial violence against Black Libyans, and, other Africans who find themselves caught in the war zone. Apparently, these “liberators” are busy trying to “ethnically cleanse” Black Libyans from towns like Tawergha, which is heavily populated by Black Libyans, having already completed the deed in Misrata, which is Libya’s third largest city.
They’re also attacking African migrant workers in the country. It’s now clear these “rebels” have mercenary kill-units sporting slogans like “the brigade for purging slaves, black skin.”
The Wall Street Journal piece also quotes rebel commander Ibrahim al-Halbous saying “They (Black Libyans) should pack up. Tawergha no longer exists, only Misrata.”

http://theredphoenixapl.org/2011/07/11/u-s-helps-rebels-murdering-black-libyans/

 

[free spirit]

You are deliberately denying or excusing gross human rights abuses by rebel forces.That makes you no different to those who wish to deny atrocities in Chechnya or Sri Lanka or Gaza or indeed Nazi Germany. You are an atrocity denier.

when and where?

I'm asking you to post up the evidence of these mass atrocities you've predicted, and apparently insist are still taking place. I'm not denying that the few isolated incidents that have been reported have taken place, though I don't agree that this is likely to be the tip of the iceberg (at least not a very big iceberg), given the amount of reporters there are over there operating relatively freely in rebel held areas as far as I can see.

Residents of a town fleeing ahead of a battle for a town is not evidence of atrocities, in fact that article itself is pretty clear evidence that no atrocities actually were committed in that town, and that the locals who remained while being a bit nervous, are free to walk the streets. Unless you think the journalist reporting it simply decided not to mention all the atrocities he'd witnessed in his report.

equating what's happening in Libya with the systematic state controlled killing of 5-6 million people in Nazi Germany is utterly nuts btw. Any such problems are obviously several orders of magnitude lower in terms of the numbers involved, and any attacks don't seem to be sanctioned by those higher up the chain of command. Unless of course you're able to supply evidence of mass concentration camps or anything even remotely approaching an organised attempt at genocide. Are you?

 

[elbows]

I don't think its safe to say that the stuff we know about is the tip of the iceberg. It might be, but I think you consistently deliver your predictions in far too confident a language.

Likewise the battle for Tripoli could be a drawn out and bloody affair, but there remain other possibilities. It was only about 3 weeks ago that you claimed Gaddafi controlled more of the country than he did at the beginning of the uprising. Even if that was sort of true in some sense, it was lousy as a guide to what would happen in August.

Personally I continue to reserve judgement as to the exact level of support for Gaddafi in Tripoli - its clear there is lots on display, but I'm very interested to see what happens when Gaddafi's coercion forces are no longer a factor. Not that I expect to get to the absolute truth of popular opinion then, for there will be a new flag that Libyan people will need to wave enthusiastically in order to to save their skins.