Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[TruXta]

Pretty sure that was a joke, Kid.

 

[teqniq]

Mind you rats and sinking ships and all that:

iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi
Something is going on. Are we seeing a mass defection? #Libya
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi
Breaking: Reports that Gaddafi's chief of intelligence has also just defected to Tunisia. #Libya

so fucknose.

It all seems pretty bizarre what with hearing that the rebels are being pushed back on the one hand......

 

[Idris2002]

I don't think we'll know the full story until the dust settles.

 

[LiamO]

Mind you rats and sinking ships and all that:



so fucknose.

It all seems pretty bizarre what with hearing that the rebels are being pushed back on the one hand......

according to RTÉ, the insurgents have been pushed back 300 miles... but it's probably Gaddafi-ite propaganda.

 

[Casually Red]

consistently bonkers

hardly , I predicted Ras Lanuf would be liberated in days if not sooner just last night , and it was by today . Ive said consistently these guys dont have the support of the Libyan people and the fact is they clearly dont . Ive been saying it for weeks , that it was a regional tribal based uprising instigated by Islamic extremists and CIA / MI5 assets and getting dogs abuse for saying it but I was fucking right . Thats why the west are still wary about giving them arms.

Now we are even being told Ghasaffi is storing bodies in freezers to place around NATO bomb sites . If Im bonkers not to believe one word of that complete and utter bullshit either then I'll happily put a pair of underpants on my head , 2 pencils up my nose Blackadder style and say wibble . Because like all the rest its just more inane contrived bullshit to garner support for another imperialist fucking crusade.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't buy that. They are capable of monumental cock-ups mostly involving self-interests and this is another one of potentially epic proportions.

I simply don't believe that they were incapable of foreseeing the results of their actions, either in Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan. Everyone else foresaw those results clearly enough.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Every day confirms me in my opinion that the West is trying to impose permanent war and chaos on Libya, as they have on Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe they want the entire middle east in that condition.

Does Israel want permanent war and chaos in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan? They might get some territorial gains, but they might also take some heavy losses. Worth the risk?

 

[teqniq]

Well if they weren't before, they are now:

C.I.A. in Libya Aiding Rebels, U.S. Officials Say

WASHINGTON — The Central Intelligence Agency has inserted clandestine operatives into Libya to gather intelligence for military airstrikes and make contacts with rebels battling Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s forces, according to American officials.

While President Obama has insisted that no American ground troops join in the Libyan campaign, small groups of C.I.A. operatives have been working in Libya for several weeks and are part of a shadow force of Westerners that the Obama administration hopes can help set back Colonel Qaddafi’s military, the officials said.

The C.I.A. presence comprises an unknown number of American officers who had worked at the spy agency’s station in Tripoli and those who arrived more recently. In addition, current and former British officials said, dozens of British special forces and MI6 intelligence officers are working inside Libya. The British operatives have been directing airstrikes from British Tornado jets and gathering intelligence about the whereabouts of Libyan government tank columns, artillery pieces, and missile installations, the officials said....

 

[Casually Red]

I think this is a key problem, there are no military minds on the rebels side, consequently they have no strategy, .

.
Because despite the propaganda the army, in common with Libyan population , didnt join them .

 

[TruXta]

.
Because despite the propaganda the army, in common with Libyan population , didnt join them .

You keep saying the Libyan population didn't join them. Then tell us, Cas, what fucking country are these rebels from?

 

[phildwyer]

Does Israel want permanent war and chaos in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan? They might get some territorial gains, but they might also take some heavy losses. Worth the risk?

Yes. They won't be taking any losses if those countries are engulfed in civil wars. Nor will they have to fear their national armies. Reducing all of Israel's enemies to a condition of permanent war and chaos would certainly seem to be in Israel's interests.

 

[Casually Red]

You tell us . If your going to ask stupid fucking questions then answer them yourself

 

[TruXta]

No, you go first Cas. You keep spouting stuff about the Libyan people not being up for a revolution. Well, excuse me, but I haven't seen anyone on either side of this claim that the rebels ain't Libyan. Now, we all know you've got the kink for ole G, so you can't always be trusted to see straight on this issue, but surely there's part of your brain that's telling you to slow down and see exactly what the corner you've backed yourself into looks like?

 

[Casually Red]

Hugo Cavez says he was talking toGhadaffi yesterday by phone and Muammar told him he has absolutely no intention of going anywhere . Meanwhile Ghdaffi has appointed former prominent Sandinista revolutionary and UN general assembly President D’Escoto Brockmann ,a long time diplomat also a Catholic priest , as his representative at the UN .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_d'Escoto_Brockmann

 

[Casually Red]

No, you go first Cas. You keep spouting stuff about the Libyan people not being up for a revolution. Well, excuse me, but I haven't seen anyone on either side of this claim that the rebels ain't Libyan. Now, we all know you've got the kink for ole G, so you can't always be trusted to see straight on this issue, but surely there's part of your brain that's telling you to slow down and see exactly what the corner you've backed yourself into looks like?

nobodys saying they arent Libyan . Simply that they dont possess the support of the Libyan population . Did you learn fucking fractions at school or what ? How about percentages ? Do you understand the diference between big and small ?

 

[weltweit]

I don't think Britain is up for Libya to remain in civil war for a period even if it is in the interests of Israel (which I am not convinced about). The no-fly zone (extended) is costing a pretty penny which looks at odds with a period of national austerity.

It is no surprise to me that forces from the U.N. coalition are on the ground in Libya indeed it was discussed earlier in the thread. But on NewsNight tonight a rebel commander was saying that they needed basic things like radios to communicate with their fighters, and more modern weapons to fight with. It is probably timely that western nations are considering arming them at the moment, I wonder if Egypt is continuing to send arms over the border and I wonder what arms they are sending.

As to this defecting foriegn minister, it is my understanding that he was Abdel Bassett ali Al Megrahi's boss at the time of the bombing of Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie. This could mean that if you believe Libya was behind it, this guy was firmly in the chain of command for that atrocity and interestingly he has already once been expelled from Britain. Still, perhaps he does know where the bodies are buried back in Libya so could be useful.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Obama authorizes secret help for Libya rebels

AC130s in the air and now this? Somehow US attempts to give the impression this isn't their war they're leading don't look credible.

President Barack Obama has signed a secret order authorizing covert U.S. government support for rebel forces seeking to oust Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, government officials told Reuters on Wednesday.

Obama signed the order, known as a presidential "finding", within the last two or three weeks, according to government sources familiar with the matter.

Such findings are a principal form of presidential directive used to authorize secret operations by the Central Intelligence Agency. This is a necessary legal step before such action can take place but does not mean that it will.

The CIA and the White House declined immediate comment.

 

[weltweit]

nobodys saying they arent Libyan . Simply that they dont possess the support of the Libyan population . Did you learn fucking fractions at school or what ? How about percentages ? Do you understand the diference between big and small ?

I think this is impossible to know. There were demonstrations in western Libyan cities but they were put down by force. There are still towns in the west where Gaddafi forces still do not have the run of the place.

It seems to me simply that the closer to Tripoli you get, the stronger is the regime's grip on the people. That does not mean people in the west do not want to be free, just that they fear for their lives if they come out into the open.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Comment withdrawn, my mistake sorry!

 

[Casually Red]

Mind you rats and sinking ships and all that:



so fucknose.

It all seems pretty bizarre what with hearing that the rebels are being pushed back on the one hand......

It lloks simply like he was being sacked for doing a poor job and has since taken the huff . Brockmann D'Ecotos entrance and his exit at the same time seem to be connected.

A statement on the Nicaraguan government website aid that D’Escoto had been instructed by President Daniel Ortega to accept the appointment and represent the people and government of Libya in its struggle to reestablish peace and defend its legitimate right to resolve, without outside meddling, its domestic conflicts."

D’Escoto "will support the Libyan brothers in their diplomatic battle for respect for their sovereignty and self-determination, both of which have been violated," the statement said.

ETA rant

So there you go . It'll be interesting to hear the reaction of all those trendy lefties who've been calling me a no good cunt for weeks now . AS well as the red faces among the wider left which were supporting this reactionary bollocks from the outset.

Therell be more fucking U Turns than a Libyan toyota in the next week from our comrades in the revolutionary left , no doubt about that now .

 

[Casually Red]

I think this is impossible to know. There were demonstrations in western Libyan cities but they were put down by force. There are still towns in the west where Gaddafi forces still do not have the run of the place.

It seems to me simply that the closer to Tripoli you get, the stronger is the regime's grip on the people. That does not mean people in the west do not want to be free, just that they fear for their lives if they come out into the open.

Maybe your right and possibly there is something in the water in the west that makes them cowardy custards alright - maybe Ghadaffi put it there while simultaneously decorating NATO bomb strikes with the bodies of people he killed.. And the south too . Doesnt expalin why theres consistently been people from the east volunteering to fight to take their own towns back as well .

And demonstrations are one thing , looting the arms dumps another . Just because people were unhappy didnt mean they wanted any part of this contra style campaign .

 

[TruXta]

nobodys saying they arent Libyan . Simply that they dont possess the support of the Libyan population . Did you learn fucking fractions at school or what ? How about percentages ? Do you understand the diference between big and small ?

Stop being so simple, you know well what I'm referring to. It's nothing to do with numbers, it's to do with credibility. You're purporting to take the moral high ground by defending the desperate actions of a stone cold murdering bastard, because some, but not all, of the people he's lording it over decided that they wouldn't have it anymore, but weren't able to fend him off by himself. So they asked for help from some other guys, not exactly angels themselves, but maybe not quite the cunts that Gadaffi et al are. Big fucking deal. That doesn't mean they're CIA stooges, minions of imperialism, Al-Qaeda, tribalists or any of the sort.

In fact, come to think of it, what's your evidence for all the stuff you're arguing? Pretty much the same media stuff anyone else is reading, unless you care to come clean on some deep shit. Yet again and again, those not on the Colonel's side are told we're tools, too stupid to tell propaganda from truth. So tell us, Cas, where's your truth? Where are your witnesses? What's left after you've packed away those red-tinted glasses?

 

[elbows]

Mind you rats and sinking ships and all that:



so fucknose.

It all seems pretty bizarre what with hearing that the rebels are being pushed back on the one hand......

Well the military events are not the only thing that puts pressure on the regime. The international isolation, the fear of war crimes stuff, the likely desperate situation as it pertains to Libyas economy, problems with imports of foodstuffs, all these things will take their toll on regime morale. And we dont know the half of it, we dont know about the propaganda the west will have targeted directly at regime members, nor what the levels of fear are like within the regime. For example we dont know to what extent the Gaddafi core of the regime has tested the loyalty of even its closest servants, nor whether they have bumped off any figures that they thought might betray them.

Its always been well possible that the rebels would not need to take places like Sirte and Tripoli by force in order for the regime to fall. It may yet have to come to that, but internal regime implosion may well be something the world powers have been banking on and could yet be enough.

 

[Casually Red]

we do know that the guy in question was doing a particularly poor job and that Ghadaffi was involved in a complete shake up of his foreign representatives after a number of high profile defections . Hampered badly by the US refusal to give any of them visas to attend the UN in New York . It looks simply like he fell out of favour and took the huffs .
Brockmann though is also a US citizen by virtue of being born in Los Angeles and commands a fair deal of respect internationally due to his diplomatic experience , his revolutionary and leftist crdentials and his former presidency of the UN general assembly .

 

[Greebozz]

What everyone fails to understand is that the Libyan people from birth have had non-stop western propaganda.

It was the same problem when we "liberated" Iraq. The whole population detested America and Britain and the Allies.

And our tactics of doing whatever we like in the country by fiddling and manipulating the UN resolution is a total disgrace.

There must be so many members of the UN who feel that they have been hoodwinked by Britain, particularly the Arab countries and rightly so. We will never be trusted again.

 

[Casually Red]

Its always been well possible that the rebels would not need to take places like Sirte and Tripoli by force in order for the regime to fall. It may yet have to come to that, but internal regime implosion may well be something the world powers have been banking on and could yet be enough.

well as the internal regime is still very much on the offensive despite weeks of arrial onslaught against them by infinitely superior military forces I think that looks unlikely at this stage and a western ground invasion looks much more likely at this point .

 

[Casually Red]

Stop being so simple, you know well what I'm referring to. It's nothing to do with numbers, it's to do with credibility.

Its got to do with who the Libyan population themselves regard as credible , not you or David Cameron or Rupert Murdoch. The western choice , their rapidly fleeing contras , simply dont possess that credibility from their fellow citizens . Neither does their dirty colonial rag of a flag . Thats precisely why they dont have the numbers . You assume immediately that the Libyan people have a world view similar to your own and similar to the medias because for some reason thats largely the true view . Thats a massive mistake to make , albeit commonplace in the west.

You're purporting to take the moral high ground by defending the desperate actions of a stone cold murdering bastard, because some, but not all, of the people he's lording it over decided that they wouldn't have it anymore, but weren't able to fend him off by himself.

When faced with yet another western crusade its not hard to take the moral high ground in opposing it , at least it shouldnt be but the majority of the left in europe and Britian appear to be tongue tied and clueless . As usual the Irish left are fucking useless too. When it comes to stone cold murdering bastards and desperate acts the western powers are infinitely and immeasuarably worse than whatever Ghadaffi could even contemplate . Their death toll of innocents from Algeria to Paris itself from Vietnam to Gaza to Iraq stands in the millions . And shows no sign of slowing .

So they asked for help from some other guys, not exactly angels themselves, but maybe not quite the cunts that Gadaffi et al are. Big fucking deal. That doesn't mean they're CIA stooges, minions of imperialism, Al-Qaeda, tribalists or any of the sort.

well its obvious you seem them as the lesser evil to Ghadaffi despite the wealth of evidence proving otherwise . Your right theyre not angels . They are devils , monsters . The evil they have committed in the last few decades alone accross the globe is utterly sickening . And theyre doing it again in Libya . You take the position that because they have never done it you or yours that theyre not all that bad . You seem incapable of taking the view that the rest of the world - where they routinely do so it - doesnt actually see things that way . And Libya is no exception .
As regards CIA and MI5 stooges theres little doubt about that because theyve bene in there fomenting assassination plots and the like for years . Theyve even been embarrassingly abducted while doing it. Thats precisely whos backing this contra campaign as well . That does actually make you a stooge . Their conscious choice of a colonial puppets flag confirms that too . Theyre reactionaries and traitors towads Libya . And the only reason why the west hasnt openly armed them as yet is precisely because known Al Qaeda leaders are among their number . And that Benghazi has long been a hotbed of Al Qaeda opposition to Ghadaffi .

In fact, come to think of it, what's your evidence for all the stuff you're arguing? Pretty much the same media stuff anyone else is reading, unless you care to come clean on some deep shit. Yet again and again, those not on the Colonel's side are told we're tools, too stupid to tell propaganda from truth. So tell us, Cas, where's your truth? Where are your witnesses? What's left after you've packed away those red-tinted glasses?

If I had red tinted glasses Id be falling about engaged in the same tongue tied hypocritical foolishness the rest of the european left are engaged in . Just the other week in Belfast an anti airstrike demonstration in Belfast turned immediately into an anti Ghaddafi one as all the little faux revolutionaries got their knickers in a twist and completely missed the point. Thankfully in Latin America actual revolutionary bases havent lost the plot .
Right now Ghadaffi is the best hope for revolutions in that part of the world and elsewhere despite his multitude of faults . Whats out to replace him is a combination of fantical clerics , conservatives, reactionaries and stooges . Thats why the west support them . Thats why the UAE , saudi and Qatar so actively support them . And an opposition that despite all that support still cant budge him , cause military defections or cause the Libyan people to revolt obviously doesnt possess any credibility in the eyes of most Libyans .
Its not my fault you believe everything you hear on the telly and I suppose your a creature of your suroundings . But that doesnt mean you or Obama or Clinton or Cameron have a monopoly on whats true or whats right and wrong . No matter how much you believe your world view does entitle you to think like that .

I'll point out again , what I have been saying for weeks is most definitely reflected by actual events on the ground . These guyshave very little credibilityi n Libya among their own people . Theyre a busted flush relying entirely upon western military might to prop them up .

 

[Casually Red]

What everyone fails to understand is that the Libyan people from birth have had non-stop western propaganda.

It was the same problem when we "liberated" Iraq. The whole population detested America and Britain and the Allies.

And our tactics of doing whatever we like in the country by fiddling and manipulating the UN resolution is a total disgrace.

There must be so many members of the UN who feel that they have been hoodwinked by Britain, particularly the Arab countries and rightly so. We will never be trusted again.

The arab countries are almost all led by various despots David Cameron was running about arming just the other month in the face of a tide of protests by their citizens . We know from wikileaks saudi arabia has been the most strident voice in the background urging western war on Iran . Saudi and the UAE effectively invaded Bahrain to put down protests there . The UAE and Qatar are involved in airstrikes on Libya in the laughable name of a democracy theyd massacre at home and currently are doing .
Ghadaffi was the one arab leader who consistently called all these fucks a buch of hypocrites and urged and even assisted their populations to overhrow them - he went directly to Cairo only a few years ago and made a speech urging the egyptians to rise up against Mubarak . The same Mubarak who attacked and invaded Libya at the wests behest in the 1970s . The leaders of these arab countries are only to happy to see whats happening,only too happy to collaborate , only too happy to see Ghadaffi dead . tHeyve sponsored the opposition there for years . Any pretence at displeasure is simply in order not to alienate their own positions among their own people .

 

[Casually Red]

Bin Jawad yesterday , Ras Lanuf today , Brega next and then onto Benghazi . Poor Cameron will have to send the troops in . Obama will no doubt be solemn too as he does his duty .

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I wonder if he knows where the bodies are buried? (metaphorically speaking)

Seems that he does:

Probably more than any other senior official inside the Libyan regime, Kousa is seen as the key figure who persuaded Gaddafi to make a deal with British intelligence agencies to stop developing weapons of mass destruction in return for the ending of its pariah status.

However, his relationship with Britain in the past has been far from convivial. Kousa has previously been seen as one of the controlling forces behind the Lockerbie bombing and it was not clear whether he was seeking political asylum.

In 1980, he was expelled from the UK and, for 15 years, he was head of Libyan foreign intelligence – including in the period of the Lockerbie

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/31/libya-mousa-kousa-gaddafi-foreign-minister