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Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

Unless the UN No-Fly zone Allies destroy Gaddafi's tanks, the rebels will have to do it themselves and it seems they are not able to do this to date. So if the no-fly zone just neutralises the effect of the tanks by stopping them being used offensively there will be precious little opportunity for the rebels to take back the west of the country and there could end up being two states, the west under Gaddafi and the east under the rebels.
 
Al Jazeera - Gaddfi forces advancing to Benghazi Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:48pm GMT
http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72H28720110318
alJazeera/Reuters said:
RABAT, March 18 (Reuters) - Al Jazeera television reported that pro-Gaddafi forces were advancing quickly towards the rebel stronghold of Benghazi on Friday evening, despite a ceasefire declared earlier in the day.

Al Jazeera said its correspondent in Benghazi reported that loyalist forces were clashing with rebels in the towns of Al-Magroun and Slouq, about 50 KM (30 miles) from the city. (Reporting by Souhail Karam, writing by Tom Heneghan; Editing by Jon Boyle)
 
All these issues have been addressed again and again in this thread. Debating with you is about as illuminating as talking to an old Stanlist about the USSR. It is 2 + 2 = 5

again your not addressing the issue . The reports were complete lies , simple as . Your case for imperialist aggression being justified against Libya amounts to nothing more than you just dont like Ghadaffi and its politically incorrect to point out the atrocities which were alleged by the rebels along with the forces which supposedly carried them out never actually existed in the first place . Its a bollocks argument to make but the one you are making. That doesnt make me a Stalinist , a trot a fascist or anything else . It means only that the argument you are trying to make purely through sarcastic asides simply doesnt stand up to scrutiny
 
Unless the UN No-Fly zone Allies destroy Gaddafi's tanks, the rebels will have to do it themselves and it seems they are not able to do this to date. So if the no-fly zone just neutralises the effect of the tanks by stopping them being used offensively there will be precious little opportunity for the rebels to take back the west of the country and there could end up being two states, the west under Gaddafi and the east under the rebels.

what do you mean take the west back ? They never had it in the first place . And thousands from the east have been volunteering to fight them and remove them from the towns they overran . Any attempt to partition Libya ill be completely illegal . And it wont just mean 2 states but all out civil war and ethnic/tribal cleansing .
 
what do you mean take the west back ? They never had it in the first place . And thousands from the east have been volunteering to fight them and remove them from the towns they overran . Any attempt to partition Libya ill be completely illegal . And it wont just mean 2 states but all out civil war and ethnic/tribal cleansing .

That is pretty much what there is at the moment.
The reason the west does not like it is just that the wrnog side is winning.
 
what we had at the moment was a near end to it . Now we have a conflict thats going to run and run and cause fuck knows what type of horrors . Sustained solely by outside interests . None of them humanitarian .
 
what we had at the moment was a near end to it . Now we have a conflict thats going to run and run and cause fuck knows what type of horrors . Sustained solely by outside interests . None of them humanitarian .

Would anything of that "end to it" have been acceptable, Gaddafi would have executed hundreds or more in reprisals and then supressed the entire nation again under his control.

Yes there is uncartainty at the moment. So far the only thing the UNSC Resolution has achieved is the saving of Benghazi and it depends how the powers that be interpret the resolution what happens next. I think in a way the resolution may be too greyly worded, it may not be clear to all exactly what it means. The no-fly zone bit is clear, but the "any reasonable measures" or whatever is not. Does it mean for example that the UN Allies now attack Gaddafi positions around Tripoli, and his army in the desert? does it mean that they try to bomb Gaddafi himself? what exactly does it mean?
 
Gaddafi is backed by large tribal forces. It is hard to see how Libya would develop into a democratic country without the support of the Warfalla and Gaddafa tribal leaders. It does look like things are going to get very messy there.
 
Oh, the western anthropologists are here again!

think we've already pointed out there's not much tribal dynamic going on in Libya.

i remember, before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Chomsky said [west's media, politicians etc. will say] "well if they kill each other then they're just dirty arabs". he was right. that's the kind of crap we may have to put up with - yet again :(
 
Oh, the western anthropologists are here again!

think we've already pointed out there's not much tribal dynamic going on in Libya.

i remember, before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Chomsky said [west's media, politicians etc. will say] "well if they kill each other then they're just dirty arabs". he was right. that's the kind of crap we may have to put up with - yet again :(

What is the dynamic in Libya then? It's not political.
 
Would anything of that "end to it" have been acceptable, Gaddafi would have executed hundreds or more in reprisals and then supressed the entire nation again under his control.

Firstly there arent any reports of massacres in the towns that have been restored to control . Secondly as regards executions sovereign governments actually do have the right to execute people for armed treason and colluding with foreign powers . Its not a war crime . What we are dealing with here is an armed campaign closely aligned to western powers and dealing directly with them urging them to intervene in their armed campaign against their government, not unarmed protestors . By any definition that is treason .
Thirdly thousands of people from all over Libya - east and west - have volunteered to fight on the governments behalf . It has not been demonstrated that the rebels have the support of the Libyan people , merely that there was significant unrest in the country which the security forces were unprepared to deal with in the beginning . Ghadaffi though was not reliant on mercenaries as was claimed and neither had his army deserted or defected . He is the legitmate head of state of a sovereign independent country . His government has every right to control it . Unpalatable as that may be to a western audience .

Yes there is uncartainty at the moment. So far the only thing the UNSC Resolution has achieved is the saving of Benghazi and it depends how the powers that be interpret the resolution what happens next. I think in a way the resolution may be too greyly worded, it may not be clear to all exactly what it means.

I dontt think its greyly worded at all . All thats unclear is the failure of the people behind the motion to clearly set out their agenda . It authorises them to take whatever armed actions against the Libyan state they see fit because they want to take all manner of armed acions to either effect regime change or the partition of a sovereign independent state . Those are the only issues they are being unclear on , instead seeking justification in the protection of civilians . Civilians in this case actually being armed combatants whom the Libyan government are not permitted take any action against , including self defense .
The no-fly zone bit is clear, but the "any reasonable measures" or whatever is not. Does it mean for example that the UN Allies now attack Gaddafi positions around Tripoli, and his army in the desert? does it mean that they try to bomb Gaddafi himself? what exactly does it mean?

Its open ended , it means they can do what they want . A free hand . They will now determine Libyas future for it ,or at least attempt to do so by military might . It means war against Libya .
 
What is the dynamic in Libya then? It's not political.

it's political . . . what are you seeing, if not politics FFS? ! And then there's the economic . . .

some background, ok? - in 1959 Libya was the poorest country in the world (and it became an independent nation for the first time in its history only after WW2). since then it has become one of the wealthiest (due, largely, to mineral wealth - it should be on a par with italy).

before that it had been a very tribal society, but, since world war two, it has been very violently transformed and entered modern history.

the battle, including the imperialist powers and israel, is over the future development in Libya, and the Libyan nation is finally grasping for true independence.

it's this process which one fears is being compromised, or undermined (or sabotaged) by the Nato interference, influenced strongly by the zionist state which gave The Donkey his power in the first place. this means a new chapter for the Libyan revolution February 17th: it must overcome an inter-imperialist struggle if its to survive and attain its glory.
 
it's political . . . what are you seeing, if not politics FFS? ! And then there's the economic . . .

I'm seeing the news. I must admit, I know absolutely fuck all about Libya. And I'm looking at Libya through western eyes. I have students from all over the Arab world, but I've never had one from Libya.
 
oh, speak for yourself. how much is the Tripoli regime paying you?? i believe everything i have said, unlike yourself and some others, is entirely accurate. do some research! people like you are trying to defend the donkey's reign - I am not. And I, unlike many other Libyans, understandably happy about the NFZ etc., am opposed to the intervention - because it will usurp the glorious and valiant resistance against The Donkey and the US and Italy and Israel etc..
 
oh, speak for yourself. how much is the Tripoli regime paying you?? i believe everything i have said, unlike yourself and some others, is entirely accurate. do some research! people like you are trying to defend the donkey's reign - I am not. And I, unlike many other Libyans, understandably happy about the NFZ etc., am opposed to the intervention - because it will usurp the glorious and valiant resistance against The Donkey and the US and Italy and Israel etc..

So you're Libyan? Where are you living now?
 
I'm seeing the news. I must admit, I know absolutely fuck all about Libya. And I'm looking at Libya through western eyes. I have students from all over the Arab world, but I've never had one from Libya.

fair do's. you can PM me if you want to know more - about anything
 
This isn't about oil. BP already has a major contract with the Gaddafi regime, it would suit them better if Gaddafi remained in power and their contract could continue normally. This is about a democratic revolt by the Libyan people being put down brutally by the Gaddafi regime and our siding with the forces of democratic reform.


So, your saying this isn't about oil but it is about defending democracy. So, the same people who run torture prisons, financed Saddam Hussein, supported Mubarak's dictatorship, Took us to war in iraq on lies, accepted Gaddafi's regime and have turned a blind eye to every single atrocity committed in Palestine are now intervening for the sake of goodness and it's nothing to do with profit or oil?

What planet do you live on?

This view is simplistic and naive in the extreme. You are a dupe. The mindset of people at the UN and in washington is only concerned with the flow of oil. They were probably betting on gaddafi until he started to make threats about who he would and wouldn't deal oil to after the Lybian conflict had finished.

They may even see favourable intervention as a way of controlling/influencing the up and coming revolutions or slowing them down.

Whatever it is they couldn't give a fuck about democracy...
 
Firstly there arent any reports of massacres in the towns that have been restored to control .

There are no reports at all from towns and cities that have been taken over by the regime.

Secondly as regards executions sovereign governments actually do have the right to execute people for armed treason and colluding with foreign powers . Its not a war crime .

It is normally not thought a good thing to execute your political enemies. Better to face them at the ballot box. But Gaddafi does not work that way. In the past he already executed political enemies in Benghazi by hanging.

What we are dealing with here is an armed campaign closely aligned to western powers and dealing directly with them urging them to intervene in their armed campaign against their government, not unarmed protestors . By any definition that is treason .

The west has had little to do with the uprising in Libya, the people just went to protest after the protests in Egypt and Tunisia they also wanted some of that, and why not. 40 years of rule by the same dictator is hardly democracy.

And for the first phase of the uprising the people positively did not want western help. It seems only when they were getting roundly beaten did they request help. It is not clear that the help they are about to get will be decisive in any case. It is likely they themselves will still have to overcome Gaddafi's forces if they are to unite the country.

Thirdly thousands of people from all over Libya - east and west - have volunteered to fight on the governments behalf . It has not been demonstrated that the rebels have the support of the Libyan people , merely that there was significant unrest in the country which the security forces were unprepared to deal with in the beginning .

I am sure that there are a number of groups who would support Gaddafi. People who have benefitted from the regime, people with tribal ties, and people supporting him because of the fear of reprisals if they do not. That does not mean that the people of Libya would vote for him in free and fair elections. He has had his turn. Fourty years as leader is enough for anyone!

Ghadaffi though was not reliant on mercenaries as was claimed and neither had his army deserted or defected . He is the legitmate head of state of a sovereign independent country . His government has every right to control it . Unpalatable as that may be to a western audience .

Interesting, legitimate how exactly?

I dontt think its greyly worded at all . All thats unclear is the failure of the people behind the motion to clearly set out their agenda . It authorises them to take whatever armed actions against the Libyan state they see fit because they want to take all manner of armed acions to either effect regime change or the partition of a sovereign independent state . Those are the only issues they are being unclear on , instead seeking justification in the protection of civilians . Civilians in this case actually being armed combatants whom the Libyan government are not permitted take any action against , including self defense .

I think it is greyly worded. Can the UN Alliance attack Gaddafi's base in Tripoli now? can they attack the tanks on the ground? whatever they can only do it by air or with air to ground weapons, boots on the ground are excluded as a method. Can they drive Gaddafi's armour out of the east of Libya?

Its open ended , it means they can do what they want . A free hand . They will now determine Libyas future for it ,or at least attempt to do so by military might . It means war against Libya .

I have just been listenning to Obama speak about the resolution, his understanding it seems to me is much less shock and awe and much more "defending civilians". If the rebels think the USA will now drive out the enemy I think they may be dissapointed.
 
So, your saying this isn't about oil but it is about defending democracy. So, the same people who run torture prisons, financed Saddam Hussein, supported Mubarak's dictatorship, Took us to war in iraq on lies, accepted Gaddafi's regime and have turned a blind eye to every single atrocity committed in Palestine are now intervening for the sake of goodness and it's nothing to do with profit or oil?

What planet do you live on?

This view is simplistic and naive in the extreme. You are a dupe. The mindset of people at the UN and in washington is only concerned with the flow of oil. They were probably betting on gaddafi until he started to make threats about who he would and wouldn't deal oil to after the Lybian conflict had finished.

They may even see favourable intervention as a way of controlling/influencing the up and coming revolutions or slowing them down.

Whatever it is they couldn't give a fuck about democracy...

If I am a dupe, then you are at the very least an unrecoverable cynic.
 
This isn't about oil. BP already has a major contract with the Gaddafi regime, it would suit them better if Gaddafi remained in power and their contract could continue normally. This is about a democratic revolt by the Libyan people being put down brutally by the Gaddafi regime and our siding with the forces of democratic reform.
It would suit them if they didn't have to give Gadaffi his cut at all.
 
About oil.

Libya accounts for just 2% of world oil output.

Italy, France and Spain are the main European importers of Libyan oil, they account for 85% of libyan oil exports.
 
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