LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[Wookey]

I agree. My point isn't that it can't be a useful (even necessary) label, now; it was about the difficulty of meaningfully applying that label (and the concept it represents) to other times and places (where there was no such concept) - refuting Poot's idea that there have always been people that can/should be identified as 'gay' (whist accepting there has always been same-sex sex, love and attraction).

I can see why Poot would say that though, when non-het people have been convincingly erased from history for so long, it's important to remember that we weren't suddenly invented in 1967.

Same-sex attracted people have in past times been elevated to the status of shaman, in the same way hermaphrodites have in some cultures been perceived as gifts from the Gods. Their experience of the world was not like mine.

 

[Athos]

I can see why Poot would say that though, when non-het people have been convincingly erased from history for so long, it's important to remember that we weren't suddenly invented in 1967.

Same-sex attracted people have in past times been elevated to the status of shaman, in the same way hermaphrodites have in some cultures been perceived as gifts from the Gods. Their experience of the world was not like mine.

Absolutely. Which is why I've been at pains to point out that a recognition that 'gay' is a modern western concept doesn't mean a denial of the long prevalence of same-sex sex.

 

[Wookey]

OK, let's talk about bigoted. Do you not acknowledge the rights of these people who wish for their children to be 'protected' (your words) from something? Are their rights not as equal as yours?

Their right to abuse their children is not comparable to the children's right not to be abused. no.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

We don't have one flag, we have fucking loads!!

View attachment 160801

And that's just this week's list!

We aren't connected by any perceived similarity in our sexualities, but by our common enemies.

I have more in common with Mr and Mrs Smith down the road, than I do a gender-fluid lesbian identified person. But I ally with gender-fluid lesbian identified people because the oppressors that come for them, will eventually be coming for me. The same reason I stand up for racial equality, disability equality, gender equality - our enemies are the same, and we are stronger together - doesn't mean for one minute that we all agree!

We don't have a unified philosophy - and Tatchell's fight for Queer solidarity was spiked on the altar of late industrial capitalism, and the nascent Queer revolution he proposed has been subsumed into non-conforming sexualities just becoming another marketing tool. We had a chance, it might return, but dissolving the concept of sexual demarcations was at the heart of his approach, sex as an act rather than a fixed identity - which means we would only ever need one label. Human.

That graphic just goes to demonstrate what a self-absorbed, naval-gazing, narcissistic age we live in.

 

[Wookey]

That graphic just goes to demonstrate what a self-absorbed, naval-gazing, narcissistic age we live in.

When the Self is under attack, the Self takes on a disproportionate importance, yes. It's tiring tbh, but a yoke we are condemned to pull at this point in the journey. Maybe be glad you don't have to?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

When the Self is under attack, the Self takes on a disproportionate importance, yes. It's tiring tbh, but a yoke we are condemned to pull at this point in the journey. Maybe be glad you don't have to?

No doubt bigotry is out there and needs to be challenged, but all this esoteric labeling of people, and obsessive flag-making just detracts from that and makes everyone involved look silly. I mean come on, Autosexual? Really?

Also, you'll have to explain to me the significance of that capitalised 's' in Self.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Won't somebody think of the wankers!

 

[Spymaster]

I do think we should completely remove the practice of religion from school, and I also think we should make a comprehensive curriculum of health, sex, and relationships education a mandatory part of the education process.

I don't think I agree with this. Neither religion nor sex/sexuality education should be taught in schools. Both are matters for the parents. If parents want their children to be brought up with religion, that's their business. If they want to tell them that homosexuality is wrong, that's their business. As abhorrent as we may find some views it's not the place for schools or teachers to be getting involved. What about politics? Should schools teach those too? Which ones?

 

[Don Troooomp]

If you had been referring to his works you'd have said them not it

Silly
When referring to the works of one person, Shakespeare in this case, they can be referred to in the singular as it's a single body of work.

 

[redsquirrel]

What about politics? Should schools teach those too? Which ones?

They do teach politics. Continually.

 

[Spymaster]

They do teach politics. Continually.

Not as subjects, and not as which are correct or incorrect.

 

[redsquirrel]

Sex education isn't taught as a subject it will be part of PSHE (or whatever it's called these days). And a large of PSHE is political.

 

[Athos]

Not as subjects, and not as which are correct or incorrect.

No, implicitly, which is far more insidious.

 

[Spymaster]

Sex education isn't taught as a subject it will be part of PSHE (or whatever it's called these days). And a large of PSHE is political.

What's PSHE?

 

[Spymaster]

`

 

[redsquirrel]

What's PSHE?

Personal, social, health and economic education. Name differs with location/time but general idea stays the same. So being taught sexual education, respect for others, about physical/mental wellbeing, careers development, etc

EDIT: Drugs awareness probably comes in there too

 

[Red Cat]

Personal, social, health and economic education. Name differs with location/time but general idea stays the same. So being taught sexual education, respect for others, about physical/mental wellbeing, careers development, etc

EDIT: Drugs awareness probably comes in there too

It does, my daughter in year 6 just did this.

 

[Theisticle]

You’ve got transphobic and homophobic Muslims who are misleading Muslims and others about the extent of RSE in schools.

Just look at their Facebook, you’d think end times were upon us.

Stop RSE

Teaching children about difference is a good thing. It will be age appropriate. Parents should be speaking to teachers with their concerns, not get manipulated by others. This also seeks to erase LGBT Muslims, and other LGBT people in other religious minorities.

 

[Wookey]

Neither religion nor sex/sexuality education should be taught in schools. Both are matters for the parents.

Relevent sex education was denied me at school, as it was banned by law, and let me tell you it's hugely damaging to the individual and directly increases suicide and drug addiction in gay youth, which is far higher than the norm. Why would you accept that, and allow homophobic parents to abuse their kids without any external balancer??

If they want to tell them that homosexuality is wrong, that's their business.

No, that's abuse. I've suffered it. Will you listen to me?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I don't think I agree with this. Neither religion nor sex/sexuality education should be taught in schools. Both are matters for the parents. If parents want their children to be brought up with religion, that's their business. If they want to tell them that homosexuality is wrong, that's their business. As abhorrent as we may find some views it's not the place for schools or teachers to be getting involved. What about politics? Should schools teach those too? Which ones?

Are you OK with parents teaching their kids that racism is OK and schools not doing anything about it?

 

[Spymaster]

Are you OK with parents teaching their kids that racism is OK and schools not doing anything about it?

No, I'm not ok with it but it's none of my business. A lot of people think communism is disgusting. Are you ok with people telling their kids that it's not?

 

[Wookey]

No doubt bigotry is out there and needs to be challenged, but all this esoteric labeling of people, and obsessive flag-making just detracts from that and makes everyone involved look silly. I mean come on, Autosexual? Really?

Also, you'll have to explain to me the significance of that capitalised 's' in Self.

The psychological theory of self-concept, how we perceive ourselves. If you are continually taught from influential adult figures that you are disordered, an abomination unto God, condemned to Hell, to a life of marginalisation and loneliness, that you were born wrong, then the concept of self is (often irreparably) damaged, which leads to dissonance, psychological trauma and mental health issues.

I gave it a cap S to indicate the formal theory of Self, rather than the word "self".

 

[Spymaster]

No, that's abuse. I've suffered it. Will you listen to me?

It's not abuse though, is it? People should be able to equip their kids as they see fit, within the law. What I find distasteful or immoral isn't going to be the same as what others do.

 

[chilango]

Social attitudes are everybody's business.

What, if anything, should be done about them is the question.

 

[Wookey]

It's not abuse though, is it? People should be able to equip their kids as they see fit, within the law. What I find distasteful or immoral isn't going to be the same as what others do.

It's abuse, usually psychological but also social and often physical.

The fact you don't see it as such is heterosexual privilege in my opinion. If you'd grown up gay in gay-hating family, you would call it out for what it is, I would hope.

 

[Red Cat]

All of this takes place within a context of equality legislation, child protection, public health strategy etc. It's just daft to suggest that these are private family issues.

 

[Spymaster]

It's abuse, usually psychological but also social and often physical.

The fact you don't see it as such is heterosexual privilege in my opinion. If you'd grown up gay in gay-hating family, you would call it out for what it is, I would hope.

Sorry mate but I can't agree that parents telling their kids that homosexuality is wrong, is abusive. It's their call, same as with religion or whether or not to feed them meat. It's nobody else's business.

 

[Wookey]

I knew a lad some years ago, who was denied sex education at school because of Section 28.

He contracted HIV the first time he had gay sex, at 17, and died on his kitchen floor in his late 20s. At the time he had no developed sense of self-worth, self-protection because he'd spent his whole life being told that people like him were worth nothing, and did not deserve protecting.

He was a victim of societal and familial abuse, in the same way that denying women the right to control their bodies with contraception is abuse.

 

[Wookey]

Sorry mate but I can't agree that parents telling their kids that homosexuality is wrong, is abusive. It's their call, same as with religion or whether or not to feed them meat. It's nobody else's business.

Then I'm afraid you help indirectly to perpetuate our abuse. I'm genuinely surprised and saddened Spymaster

 

[Spymaster]

Then I'm afraid you help indirectly to perpetuate our abuse.

That's not fair at all. I don't agree with the viewpoint but parents have the right to raise their children as they believe is correct.