LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[Sweet FA]

Let's not on this thread eh.

 

[InArduisFouette]

You are entitled to think that if you choose. But the law disagrees, and it's important kids are given accurate information. And society frequently disagrees. Trans women, depending on how they pass, move through the world as women and are treated as such. So both legally and socially trans women, even without surgery, can be and are in most circumstances regarded as women. If you find that ludicrous that's up to you.

It's a fairly safe bet though that you have met, seen or interacted with a trans women without knowing she was trans and thought of her as a woman yourself. Like most people you probably make a rough assumption of people's sex from their outward physical appearance and gender signifiers. Genitals don't come into it in most social situations.

and when someone says they've never seen a 'passing' trans woman it means they haven't been looking...

I know cisgender women with worse hairlines than mine ,

my current kind of boss ( course leader for training for the job i'm now doing- was was historically seen as a man's job in a wider organisation/ sector dominated by pink collar roles ) is, as far as i am aware, a cisgender woman, she's taller than me, probably as broad across the chest and shoulders and has some rather boyish habits and hobbies so perhaps as likely to be 'gender presentation policed' in the same ways a trans woman is , perhaps not helped by work's rules saying short nails, reinforced toecap boots, combat trews and a a choice of shapeless poloshirt or shapeless uniform shirt ... add in that various parts of the role that'll be topped by a thick coat and hi-vis and a lovely kevlar helmet ( although the new to general issue 'Manta' helmets appear to be some kind of plastic rather than composite)

 

[InArduisFouette]

This passage of debate started this morning with the suggestion, now refuted, that people with certain religious views shouldn't have kids. That was the only reason I got involved. I have made a point for a couple of years now of not commenting on trans threads out of respect for people who I like and don't want to upset. I've studiously put trans threads on ignore but this one has developed from elsewhere so I'm not going to lie. I think the notion of a biological male with full male genitalia being a woman is ludicrous. That doesn't mean that I believe trans folk "shouldn't exist". I'm happy to call you a woman if that's what you want, and I'm happy for kids to be told that men can choose to live as women and that's ok. That's their call and we should respect it completely. But, if parents don't believe that a man can become a woman by declaring it or signing a piece of paper, they should be allowed to opt their kids out of the portion of a curriculum that says otherwise. That someone can lose their job for saying the same, whether for religious or other reasons, is wrong.

now the question most pertinent here is does Spymaster have a permanent or temporary disorder of the brain or mind ... and if so does Spymaster meet the next four criteria ?

It's always interesting how it comes down to perverse cisgender males having wanker's remorse aobut the idea that might be aroused by a woman whom they subsequently discover to be have (incorrectly) assigned male at birth based on the appearance of the external genitalia...

if you are man enough spymaster have a 30 day GnRH analogue injection and 4 mg oral equivlaent dose of estrodiol ( bio indentical oestrogen) ... look up 'Dr Powers and the face cream '

 

[Spymaster]

It's always interesting how it comes down to perverse cisgender males having wanker's remorse aobut the idea that might be aroused by a woman whom they subsequently discover to be have (incorrectly) assigned male at birth based on the appearance of the external genitalia...

I can't deny it would be a disappointment.

 

[8ball]

and when someone says they've never seen a 'passing' trans woman it means they haven't been looking...

I know cisgender women with worse hairlines than mine ,

my current kind of boss ( course leader for training for the job i'm now doing- was was historically seen as a man's job in a wider roganisation/ secotr dominated by pink collar roles ) is as far as i am aware a cisgender woman, she's taller than me, probably as broad across the chest and shoulders and has some rather boyish habits and hobbies so perhaps as likely to be 'gender presentation policed' in the same ways a trans woman is , perhaps not helped by work;s rules saying short nails, reinforced toecap boots, combat trews and a a choice of shapeless poloshirt or shapeless uniform shirt ... add in that various parts of the role that'll be topped by a thick coat and hi-vis and a lovely kevlar helement ( although the new to general issue 'Manta' helmets appear to be some kind of plastic rather than composite)

Your work gear has a def Starship Troopers vibe to it.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Your work gear has a def Starship Troopers vibe to it.

more a blue light vibe

 

[Rob Ray]

and when someone says they've never seen a 'passing' trans woman it means they haven't been looking...

Also the reason they didn't see any passing trans women is because y'know ... they'd passed.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Also the reason they didn't see any passing trans women is because y'know ... they'd passed.

I pass nearly all the time. If I do get caught out its usually because of my voice, as I suffer from sinus problems its not always easy to keep my voice at an appropriate register. I've been living in Dover for nearly 4 years now and none of my neighbours have a clue that I'm trans. And I know they don't because if they knew I'd be getting abuse by now, as happened in my last address, or if not abuse, getting eyeballed a lot.

I've even been in situations where I've been standing next to people complaining about trans women - most recently when my passengers in the taxi were making quite extreme bigoted statements about the trans girl in their school - but were nice as pie to me.

And according to Spymaster I can't be a woman. According to Spymaster no trans woman is a woman because we all start off with male genitalia, obviously.

 

[Humberto]

Well as for God wherever you are with that. He likes the outsiders. And kind of hates the oppressors. I mean his bird was a woman of 'questionable moral fibre' (prostitute?) it seems to me. Don't give me a hard time I only mean he was always hanging out with the marginalised. I mean it was 2-2500 thousand years ago and he got crucified for what he DID say.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't disagree with much of that but, as was being discussed this morning, I don't think we're party to all of the details about the case. It's possible that the individual concerned may have broken a contractual condition or said something in the disciplinary that caused the employers to dismiss her.

Sure but disrepute clauses, and increasing contractual ties are fucking awful and not something to defended or supported. This person is an arsehole, but the reliance of liberalism for the law to ensure 'equality' (or more accurately the permitted discrimination) is a bad route and something to be opposed. The focus has to be on the political and strengthening workers control.

 

[brogdale]

Sure but disrepute clauses, and increasing contractual ties are fucking awful and not something to defended or supported. This person is an arsehole, but the reliance of liberalism for the law to ensure 'equality' (or more accurately the permitted discrimination) is a bad route and something to be opposed. The focus has to be on the political and strengthening workers control.

Agreed; that would be why I’ve not defended or supported either ( former public sector union rep.) but I have tried to explain to the pro-bigot trolls why the she was lawfully dismissed.

 

[brogdale]

That said, if her public utterances reflected an intent to deny service to some pupils, she had no place continuing in her chalkface role.

 

[SpookyFrank]

In teaching it's not even an employment contract issue, if you bring your profession into disrepute you can be deregistered by the TRA and you won't be able to work anywhere. The bar for this is pretty high but I'd say accusing a school of child abuse clears it comfortably.

 

[tim]

I don't disagree with much of that but, as was being discussed this morning, I don't think we're party to all of the details about the case. It's possible that the individual concerned may have broken a contractual condition or said something in the disciplinary that caused the employers to dismiss her.

As you're not party to the case why are you speculating wildly about what night also have happened,rather than focussing on the known fact that this person was sacked by her bosses because of a social media post that she made?

 

[brogdale]

As you're not party to the case why are you speculating wildly about what night also have happened,rather than focussing on the known fact that this person was sacked by her bosses because of a social media post that she made.

That's a fair point. I was trying to offer some context about the likelihood of such a role having disrepute clauses etc. attached and some. albeit limited, experience of the sort of questions that employers might well put in the subsequent disciplinary. But you're right; I'll desist from any further speculation.

 

[redsquirrel]

I'd be surprised if 'bringing the employer into disrepute' was not invoked at least at the investigation stage. Every single disciplinary I've supported members though had has it included, it is such an easy hook to hang things on that IME HR attach it as a matter of form.

Which is it is so crap.

 

[likesfish]

My best friends/colleagues at my school are muslim and they have no issue with teaching content that says kids shouldn't be transphobic, or stopping transphobic abuse when they see it; because, like most people regardless of religion, they are good people, not dicks!

The idea that muslim people are all unable to be against transphobia, or navigate all the hundreds of contradictions that everyone has to in order to coexist in some kind of harmony with a multicultural society composed of myriad complex individuals, is islamophobic.

Unfortunately the DICKS of all and no faith Make all the noise!

 

[lazythursday]

If the posts were racist - so expressed the opinion that black kids are thick, or something, should she be sacked? I'd lean towards yes, because that makes it highly questionable that she is able to do her job of pastoral care. I don't see that this is that different - expressed views have a direct impact on her ability to do the job. If she was robustly anti immigration, but without obvious racist overtones, she'd probably be on the right side of the line.

If she worked in admin for the school her freedom of speech is a lot wider, in my view. This is about her ability to provide appropriate care and support to all children including the gay and trans ones, or those with gay or trans parents.

 

[kebabking]

Wisdom of Solomon job - I think lazythursday has it, that even if at school she is absolutely professional and digs out for anyone regardless of there protected characteristics, if the parents/kids think she discriminates against them based on stuff they've seen on her Facebook/attending a demo in town, then there's a real question about her employability.

However, that horrible noise is the grinding of that principle going up against the other principle that if she does the job she's employed to do to the satisfaction of her employer, she should not lose her livelihood because of what she thinks privately, or even does outside her employment in a liberal, democratic state where opinions, however distasteful the state find them, are not illegal.

We have similar issues in the Army.

 

[brogdale]

This personnel trade mag piece appears to give one of the fuller accounts of the case.

It offers a few more elements, including:

Higgs lost her job after expressing views about how LGBT relationships and sex education (RSE) were taught in schools. The posts in 2018 were shared on her private Facebook profile and did not name her employer....The ruling acknowledged that Higgs’ beliefs are protected by the Equality Act, but found she was dismissed because some of the content in the articles she had linked to could lead someone to think that she “was hostile towards the LGBT community, and trans people in particular”.

The school received complaints about the posts and she was later dismissed for gross misconduct in relation to discrimination, inappropriate use of social media and online comments. She claimed that her views were compared with Nazism when the school questioned her about the posts.

Andrea Williams, chief executive of the Christian Legal Centre, said:

“Kristie was punished in 2019 due to the climate of fear and intolerance created in our education system by Stonewall and other LGBT activist groups.

“Since her sacking, RSE and transgender ideology in our schools has been exposed as deeply harmful. The prime minister has ordered an urgent review into the extreme and sexualised RSE materials and teaching being imposed upon children. The government has now also released transgender guidance which states clearly that religious beliefs of concerned parents, like Kristie, must be respected....“[Books] that promote extreme gender identity ideology, harm and confusion have no place in a Church of England or indeed any school in the UK."

Certainly gives an impression of the sort of people funding/backing her case.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

The prime minister has ordered an urgent review into the extreme and sexualised RSE materials and teaching being imposed upon children. The government has now also released transgender guidance which states clearly that religious beliefs of concerned parents, like Kristie, must be respected....“[Books] that promote extreme gender identity ideology, harm and confusion have no place in a Church of England or indeed any school in the UK."

Section 28 for trans people. It won't work - it will only create a generation of severely traumatised trans people. The only good thing about this is that in 20 years when this government advice is overturned it will herald a time of increased tolerance, but I'm disgusted that we have to go trough this bullshit very single fucking time!

 

[kebabking]

...Certainly gives an impression of the sort of people funding/backing her case

I think I'd want to be a bit wary of drawing the conclusion that backers = her views - though I wouldn't fall off my chair if it was true...

We see in some of the very distressing court cases around children's medical care at the end of their lives that parents who are desperate will often be preyed upon by deeply unpleasant groups who they share nothing in common with, but who have deep pockets and fundie solicitors who will fund and fight their case when no-one else can or will.

If she thinks she's going to lose her livelihood - and not just this job - then desperate is what she'll be.

 

[Aladdin]

They're not religious views though, as evidenced by the large numbers of people who share the religion but none of the cancerous opinions.

Whether people should have kids or not is a meaningless question. Why someone with these views would want to have kids, knowing that they will grow up surrounded by sinful perverts hell bent on their moral destruction, is a question it seems fair to asask.

Do you teach children about the human rights act ?

 

[Spymaster]

This personnel trade mag piece appears to give one of the fuller accounts of the case.

It offers a few more elements, including:





Certainly gives an impression of the sort of people funding/backing her case.

She's a Christian. It's wholly unsurprising that she'd receive support from a Christian organisation.

 

[Sweet FA]

Do you teach children about the human rights act ?

I know it wasn't aimed at me but we do at primary. A series of lessons based around the convention on the rights of the child.

 

[likesfish]

Ideology and religion is fine as long as you as you show some understanding that everybody else may not agree with you and you may have to compromise if you want to live in the same place you don't have to like it you just have to tolerate it.

A multicultural society means you can't keep your kids culturaly pure and can't expect the state to bend to your whims

 

[brogdale]

She's a Christian. It's wholly unsurprising that she'd receive support from a Christian organisation.

OK, but what does your lack of surprise add to the discussion?

 

[Spymaster]

OK, but what does your lack of surprise add to the discussion?

The same as your observation regarding the "type of people backing her case".

 

[Magnus McGinty]

holy unsurprising

FTFY

 

[littlebabyjesus]

OK, but what does your lack of surprise add to the discussion?

The Christian Legal Centre is an appalling group of people. If nothing else, it shows her desperation if she has turned to them. They always lose the cases they take on. It's an impressively long list of failure.