LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[Dystopiary]

A close relative of mine didn't know what was happening to her when her periods started because nobody ever told her about them. She legit thought she might be dying.

Thank goodness for age appropriate sex ed in schools.

 

[rutabowa]

My best friends/colleagues at my school are muslim and they have no issue with teaching content that says kids shouldn't be transphobic, or stopping transphobic abuse when they see it; because, like most people regardless of religion, they are good people, not dicks!

The idea that muslim people are all unable to be against transphobia, or navigate all the hundreds of contradictions that everyone has to in order to coexist in some kind of harmony with a multicultural society composed of myriad complex individuals, is islamophobic.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

or just not to be bullied at work. I speak from experience!

The sacked worker wasn’t bullied at all! Despite losing livelihood.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Religion is ostensibly absent from state schools in America and yet this somehow hasn’t stopped the religious right from harassing educators, maligning them as groomers and banning books from school libraries and curricula. There must be something else at play.

True enough. The UK is culturally very much European in this regard, though.

We've been drifting towards secularism for decades, but various unhelpful government pushes for more religion in schools, such as those by Blair, have been extremely unhelpful. Blair's policies for more religious schools set us back.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

On social media.

You’re on social media now. I don’t like your thoughts. How about losing your home over it?
Jesus. The left are fucking awful at times. No wonder folk generally avoid us.

 

[SpookyFrank]

E2a: fuck it

 

[Dystopiary]

Nah. There isn't an equivalence between secular schooling and religious schooling. A secular education can be provided to all kids equally in the same class, whatever their parents' religion and without necessarily contradicting those parents' religious beliefs - except where the beliefs are contrary to, say, the subject matter of a science class.

The French have this bit right. Religion has no place in state-funded schools.

I disagree, in part. Like Sweet FA said here (my bold):

Schools should be free of religious instruction; that doesn't mean intolerance. Teaching of religion as history/cultural studies yes - assemblies with prayers, state funded 'faith-based education', no. If Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, and Christian families want to educate their children about their religion outside of school, fine, no-one's stopping them. Most if not all of the Muslim, Sikh, Hindu children in my class go to places of worship/religious schools in the evenings/weekends.

Wrt to sex, it's not about the parents, it's about the children. They have a right to be educated about their sex, sexuality, their bodies and their emotions. To deny them that due to their parents' religious belief is harmful.

 

[brogdale]

You’re on social media now. I don’t like your thoughts. How about losing your home over it?
Jesus. The left are fucking awful at times. No wonder folk generally avoid us.

The case is reportedly about publicly aired beliefs saying that the beliefs of others amounted to brainwashing, not privately held beliefs.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh sure. You teach religion in anthropology class. (I think schools should have more anthropology classes.)

 

[ouirdeaux]

everyone knows the planet was created last week by a leprechaun named Chuzzlewit

No, they didn't, at least not until now. And you said you would keep my secret, but you didn't. I'm disappointed beyond belief.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Oh sure. You teach religion in anthropology class. (I think schools should have more anthropology classes.)

I look forward to it being taught in history class.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The case is reportedly about publicly aired beliefs saying that the beliefs of others amounted to brainwashing, not privately held beliefs.

Like MM, I'm very uneasy about this kind of sacking. She shared something on Facebook, posting using her maiden name, which she didn't use at school, and was sacked after an anonymous tip off.

It's not like she stood up and screamed about it in the town square.

Sharing things on Facebook with the people you are 'friends' with isn't quite the same as being in public.

Wanker thing to do to report her to her workplace anonymously imo.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The case is reportedly about publicly aired beliefs saying that the beliefs of others amounted to brainwashing, not privately held beliefs.

I think most religions are brain washing. They are protected characteristics. According to you me expressing that means I should lose my job?
Cheers, comrade.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think most religions are brain washing. They are protected characteristics. According to you me expressing that means I should lose my job?
Cheers, comrade.

Tbh it's not really so different from being sacked for liking a free Palestine post, saying from the river to the sea, etc.

 

[Orang Utan]

Like MM, I'm very uneasy about this kind of sacking. She shared something on Facebook, posting using her maiden name, which she didn't use at school, and was sacked after an anonymous tip off.

It's not like she stood up and screamed about it in the town square.

Sharing things on Facebook with the people you are 'friends' with isn't quite the same as being in public.

Wanker thing to do to report her to her workplace anonymously imo.

Agree with that. Though I’d assumed that she’d said it on Facebook and she must have been friends with colleagues at the school?
if that’s true, I have less sympathy.

 

[Orang Utan]

Tbh it's not really so different from being sacked for liking a free Palestine post, saying from the river to the sea, etc.

Has anyone been sacked for that though?

 

[brogdale]

Like MM, I'm very uneasy about this kind of sacking. She shared something on Facebook, posting using her maiden name, which she didn't use at school, and was sacked after an anonymous tip off.

It's not like she stood up and screamed about it in the town square.

Sharing things on Facebook with the people you are 'friends' with isn't quite the same as being in public.

Wanker thing to do to report her to her workplace anonymously imo.

I don't disagree with much of that but, as was being discussed this morning, I don't think we're party to all of the details about the case. It's possible that the individual concerned may have broken a contractual condition or said something in the disciplinary that caused the employers to dismiss her.

 

[Orang Utan]

I think most religions are brain washing. They are protected characteristics. According to you me expressing that means I should lose my job?
Cheers, comrade.

All education is ‘brain-washing’, ie indoctrination to some degree

 

[Spymaster]

You seem to think that primary school children are going to approach this subject with the same zealotry of the average trans obsessed gender critical twitter troll. How many kids are realistically going to ask that? And even if they do there are plenty of nuanced and age appropriate ways to respond. Such as that individuals are the only ones who know how they feel and what usually happens when someone decides to change their gender is they change their clothes, their name, how they look, what words they use to describe themselves like he or she and if they want there are things doctors can do to help them have a body they are more comfortable with. They can even go through a process to legally change their gender if they want to.

It's really not difficult, and only becomes so if you have swallowed gender critical myths about society being inundated by men claiming to be women who do nothing to change their appearance or bodies and just want to get into women's toilets. That's not true though. There is no evidence of this happening on any scale or even happening at all. It's a conspiracy theory. Kid's deserve a better education than that.

This passage of debate started this morning with the suggestion, now refuted, that people with certain religious views shouldn't have kids. That was the only reason I got involved. I have made a point for a couple of years now of not commenting on trans threads out of respect for people who I like and don't want to upset. I've studiously put trans threads on ignore but this one has developed from elsewhere so I'm not going to lie. I think the notion of a biological male with full male genitalia being a woman is ludicrous. That doesn't mean that I believe trans folk "shouldn't exist". I'm happy to call you a woman if that's what you want, and I'm happy for kids to be told that men can choose to live as women and that's ok. That's their call and we should respect it completely. But, if parents don't believe that a man can become a woman by declaring it or signing a piece of paper, they should be allowed to opt their kids out of the portion of a curriculum that says otherwise. That someone can lose their job for saying the same, whether for religious or other reasons, is wrong.

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't disagree with much of that but, as was being discussed this morning, I don't think we're party to all of the details about the case. It's possible that the individual concerned may have broken a contractual condition or said something in the disciplinary that caused the employers to dismiss her.

I also suspect there’s more going on than is being reported

 

[brogdale]

I think most religions are brain washing. They are protected characteristics. According to you me expressing that means I should lose my job?
Cheers, comrade.

It really doesn't.

 

[smokedout]

You’re on social media now. I don’t like your thoughts. How about losing your home over it?
Jesus. The left are fucking awful at times. No wonder folk generally avoid us.

I don't think we've worked out how to manage this very successfully yet but you are only looking at this from a very narrow viewpoint. If you have pastoral responsibility for kids, some of whom may be LGBTQ, and a public facebook page on which you rant about how LTBTQ people are perverted, deluded, psychotic and brainwashing kids, then what happens when those children under your care see that. It's not like a conversation in the pub. Her page wasn't set to private and presumably referenced her workplace. These were public statements which are not without potential consequences for her colleagues or the kids at the school she worked at.

At the very least it could incite homophobic bullying, endorsed by an adult in a position of authority. It could also means LGBTQ kids or LGBTQ parents felt unable to approach her. I would have felt uncomfortable if I saw one of my son's teachers going on homophobic or transphobic rants on facebook. I'd feel uncomfortable if I saw a colleague do that.

It's a new technology. I've said upthread I'm unsure about people losing their jobs because of facebook posts but it's not cut and dried. It's perfectly possible to be anonymous and say whatever you want online. But public statements can have consequences for those you work with and those you support if you are in that kind of role. Where the line should be drawn is difficult, hence the endless court cases.

 

[Orang Utan]

More misrepresentation to stir the pot from the usual source. Best ignore it, folks.

 

[smokedout]

This passage of debate started this morning with the suggestion, now refuted, that people with certain religious views shouldn't have kids. That was the only reason I got involved. I have made a point for a couple of years now of not commenting on trans threads out of respect for people who I like and don't want to upset. I've studiously put trans threads on ignore but this one has developed from elsewhere so I'm not going to lie. I think the notion of a biological male with full male genitalia being a woman is ludicrous.

You are entitled to think that if you choose. But the law disagrees, and it's important kids are given accurate information. And society frequently disagrees. Trans women, depending on how they pass, move through the world as women and are treated as such. So both legally and socially trans women, even without surgery, can be and are in most circumstances regarded as women. If you find that ludicrous that's up to you.

It's a fairly safe bet though that you have met, seen or interacted with a trans women without knowing she was trans and thought of her as a woman yourself. Like most people you probably make a rough assumption of people's sex from their outward physical appearance and gender signifiers. Genitals don't come into it in most social situations.

 

[SpookyFrank]

This passage of debate started this morning with the suggestion, now refuted, that people with certain religious views shouldn't have kids.

They're not religious views though, as evidenced by the large numbers of people who share the religion but none of the cancerous opinions.

Whether people should have kids or not is a meaningless question. Why someone with these views would want to have kids, knowing that they will grow up surrounded by sinful perverts hell bent on their moral destruction, is a question it seems fair to ask.

 

[Spymaster]

They're not religious views though, as evidenced by the large numbers of people who share the religion but none of the cancerous opinions.

Whether people should have kids or not is a meaningless question. Why someone with these views would want to have kids, knowing that they will grow up surrounded by sinful perverts hell bent on their moral destruction, is a question it seems fair to ask.

You are a ridiculous fool. Be quiet.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

 

[8ball]

Has anyone been sacked for that though?

No one has even been offered geography lessons afaik.

 

[Orang Utan]

No one has even been offered geography lessons afaik.

What? Are you trying to be funny again? Please don’t.

 

[brogdale]

Someone's getting all wound up again.