Lambeth Council Watch - news and updates about the 'co-operative' council
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Started (re) reading chapter four of the Kerslake report. Four and Five is where it gets more technical with advice/ recommnedation to the Council.
Re residents this quote from 4.1.3 of report stuck out:
A theme that runs through the report is recommendations that Council should be more transparent on information for residents and ( this is the word he uses ) do genuine consultation with residents
In chapter for makes a series of recommendations on how to do this. Based on discussion with local residents. Why the Council haven't done this is not really part of this report. He does talk about a "cultural" change needed in Lambeth.
The above quote implies imo that the cultural change includes how the whole of this particular Labour Council works. Say this as he uses examples from other boroughs of good practise. So the way this Council deals with residents is not inevitable.
IMO a lot of longstanding Cllrs regard their job as management. That every few years residents get a vote. Once this is done they should shut up and leave it to them.
On HfL he says it should be wound up. That duplication of working ( HfL and Council officers) has led to difficulties in progressing projects. It makes no sense for HfL to build homes then subcontract Lambeth housing to manage them for example.
He uses the word "Silo" working a lot in this chapter. That is different sections of the Council working separately. Causing potential conflict in how the Council proceeds. Working at cross purposes in short.
His recommendation is to bring HfL back inhouse over a couple of years. With officers from HfL integrated into Council.
Secondly a re organisation of Council re producing homes to stop siloed working. This could be either a specific department ( including HfL former staff) for housing matters or a specific department with a more general aim of growth/ placemaking.
Thirdly a written policy for housing including housing standards and clear information so that residents can see if future Council schemes fulfill objectives.
Surprisingly Council has very little in way of policy documents. Policy docs on principles of estate regeneration/ standard of housing ( green housing principles)/ general housing policy principles.
On the estate renewal programme ( he calls it renewal rather than regeneration) he says tow options.
Community renewal or development route.
Community renewal would look at retrofit / refurbish homes with some infill. With emphasis on refurbishment rather than redevelopment. With increase of homes on an estate secondary. ( In practise Kerslake found that HfL/ Council existing plans for these estates were likely to not produce much new housing anyway)
The get out clause for Council in report is if it can prove that the housing on estates have reached end of life. That a full carbon assessment means that demolition is an option. I expect the Council will be poring over report to find get out clauses. Rather than keeping to the spirit of the report. Which is to put residents at heart of any renewal/ regeneration/ placemaking/ development of housing policy. Where Cllrs/ officers serve the people rather than the other way around.
He sees a bigger role for the planning department. If a new directorate for growth is established then planning dept could have role in it as consultants.
This is one area where I disagree with Kerslake. I think the idea of a new (non silo) growth directorate is potentially good idea. This would ( I think) include Council owned sites and be not just about housing. The old Pop site is example. Council owned site. Potentially it could help community renewal of sites like this. With genuine consultation of local community.
However given the way planning behaved over the Hondo site and Grove adventure playground I think this dept has same cultural problems to Lambeth as a whole. Autocratic/ top down / to willing to work with developers and losing site of the communities they are suppose to serve. As well as digging their heels in when come up against community opposition. Also the problem in Lambeth of back bench Cllrs not wanting to be seen to contradict senior officers. A cultural aspect of Lambeth that really annoys me.
From reading the report which is mainly about housing, though this recommendation for overall directorate for growth is wider, and Kerslake sees Lambeth planning as the one area where Lambeth is performing well on producing housing. My criticism of that is that he is looking at numbers and how they stack up against national targets. On more local level residents have opposed way planning department works on specific schemes. Unlike housing in this report he looks to me like he has not talked to residents on how planning operates in Lambeth.
On a more general level he looks at the London context. The idea of using Special Purpose Vehicles (SPV) to build more social housing was popular amongst Councils. Changes to how housing finance works and the growth of public perception that these SPV act more like private developers has led many Councils to change and go down the bringing it all back inhouse route. So what Kerslake is saying is that this option is not one he just made up. But one that other Councils have done.
Two London Councils have kept SPVs. But he says they have strong governance ( again he is implying that Lambeth have poor governance) and are larger in scale. Which helps with the finance side of it.
Other changes that mean London Councils are more inclined to inhouse building is changes to RTB receipt use, GLA/ Mayor increase in grants/ more "headroom" in HRA.
This is where report unavoidably gets more technical.
RTB receipts- when people exercise Right To Buy Council home Council can now use more of the receipt- money it gets- to reinvest in housing.
Mayor has made different types of grant available to Councils.
Headroom. The Housing Revenue Account is all the Council housing a Council has. The headroom is the related to how much it can borrow on basis of its assets ( ownership of housing) to fund new housing.
All these make it more practical for Councils to work inhouse than set up SPV. This is not a criticism of Lambeth it is how things have changed over the first use of idea of SPVs.
Lambeth does not have a lot of headroom compared to other Councils.
Another revenue stream is private investment. This requires Lambeth to be on top of the deals it makes with private large investors.
Given Lambeth Id say this is risky.
What Lambeth is starting to do is not use HfL instead find a development partner for sites. It is doing this on the Pop site.
How this turns out is anyone's guess. I don't see much in way of consultation or explanation from Council on how this will work in light of Kerslake report.
For example in Kerslake report he says partnering up is one option. But Council must make sure it has robust guidelines for development. Making sure the standard of housing is green for example. Which is why the missing policies are needed.
I remember asking while back why Council didn't develop Pop site themselves using the SPV. Officer said they had looked at that option and decided no. Did not give the reason. Could be that senior officers even then were not confident HfL was up to the job. Or that the broken relations with HfL and officers meant they decided against it.
Re residents this quote from 4.1.3 of report stuck out:
A theme that runs through the report is recommendations that Council should be more transparent on information for residents and ( this is the word he uses ) do genuine consultation with residents
In chapter for makes a series of recommendations on how to do this. Based on discussion with local residents. Why the Council haven't done this is not really part of this report. He does talk about a "cultural" change needed in Lambeth.
The above quote implies imo that the cultural change includes how the whole of this particular Labour Council works. Say this as he uses examples from other boroughs of good practise. So the way this Council deals with residents is not inevitable.
IMO a lot of longstanding Cllrs regard their job as management. That every few years residents get a vote. Once this is done they should shut up and leave it to them.
On HfL he says it should be wound up. That duplication of working ( HfL and Council officers) has led to difficulties in progressing projects. It makes no sense for HfL to build homes then subcontract Lambeth housing to manage them for example.
He uses the word "Silo" working a lot in this chapter. That is different sections of the Council working separately. Causing potential conflict in how the Council proceeds. Working at cross purposes in short.
His recommendation is to bring HfL back inhouse over a couple of years. With officers from HfL integrated into Council.
Secondly a re organisation of Council re producing homes to stop siloed working. This could be either a specific department ( including HfL former staff) for housing matters or a specific department with a more general aim of growth/ placemaking.
Thirdly a written policy for housing including housing standards and clear information so that residents can see if future Council schemes fulfill objectives.
Surprisingly Council has very little in way of policy documents. Policy docs on principles of estate regeneration/ standard of housing ( green housing principles)/ general housing policy principles.
On the estate renewal programme ( he calls it renewal rather than regeneration) he says tow options.
Community renewal or development route.
Community renewal would look at retrofit / refurbish homes with some infill. With emphasis on refurbishment rather than redevelopment. With increase of homes on an estate secondary. ( In practise Kerslake found that HfL/ Council existing plans for these estates were likely to not produce much new housing anyway)
The get out clause for Council in report is if it can prove that the housing on estates have reached end of life. That a full carbon assessment means that demolition is an option. I expect the Council will be poring over report to find get out clauses. Rather than keeping to the spirit of the report. Which is to put residents at heart of any renewal/ regeneration/ placemaking/ development of housing policy. Where Cllrs/ officers serve the people rather than the other way around.
He sees a bigger role for the planning department. If a new directorate for growth is established then planning dept could have role in it as consultants.
This is one area where I disagree with Kerslake. I think the idea of a new (non silo) growth directorate is potentially good idea. This would ( I think) include Council owned sites and be not just about housing. The old Pop site is example. Council owned site. Potentially it could help community renewal of sites like this. With genuine consultation of local community.
However given the way planning behaved over the Hondo site and Grove adventure playground I think this dept has same cultural problems to Lambeth as a whole. Autocratic/ top down / to willing to work with developers and losing site of the communities they are suppose to serve. As well as digging their heels in when come up against community opposition. Also the problem in Lambeth of back bench Cllrs not wanting to be seen to contradict senior officers. A cultural aspect of Lambeth that really annoys me.
From reading the report which is mainly about housing, though this recommendation for overall directorate for growth is wider, and Kerslake sees Lambeth planning as the one area where Lambeth is performing well on producing housing. My criticism of that is that he is looking at numbers and how they stack up against national targets. On more local level residents have opposed way planning department works on specific schemes. Unlike housing in this report he looks to me like he has not talked to residents on how planning operates in Lambeth.
On a more general level he looks at the London context. The idea of using Special Purpose Vehicles (SPV) to build more social housing was popular amongst Councils. Changes to how housing finance works and the growth of public perception that these SPV act more like private developers has led many Councils to change and go down the bringing it all back inhouse route. So what Kerslake is saying is that this option is not one he just made up. But one that other Councils have done.
Two London Councils have kept SPVs. But he says they have strong governance ( again he is implying that Lambeth have poor governance) and are larger in scale. Which helps with the finance side of it.
Other changes that mean London Councils are more inclined to inhouse building is changes to RTB receipt use, GLA/ Mayor increase in grants/ more "headroom" in HRA.
This is where report unavoidably gets more technical.
RTB receipts- when people exercise Right To Buy Council home Council can now use more of the receipt- money it gets- to reinvest in housing.
Mayor has made different types of grant available to Councils.
Headroom. The Housing Revenue Account is all the Council housing a Council has. The headroom is the related to how much it can borrow on basis of its assets ( ownership of housing) to fund new housing.
All these make it more practical for Councils to work inhouse than set up SPV. This is not a criticism of Lambeth it is how things have changed over the first use of idea of SPVs.
Lambeth does not have a lot of headroom compared to other Councils.
Another revenue stream is private investment. This requires Lambeth to be on top of the deals it makes with private large investors.
Given Lambeth Id say this is risky.
What Lambeth is starting to do is not use HfL instead find a development partner for sites. It is doing this on the Pop site.
How this turns out is anyone's guess. I don't see much in way of consultation or explanation from Council on how this will work in light of Kerslake report.
For example in Kerslake report he says partnering up is one option. But Council must make sure it has robust guidelines for development. Making sure the standard of housing is green for example. Which is why the missing policies are needed.
I remember asking while back why Council didn't develop Pop site themselves using the SPV. Officer said they had looked at that option and decided no. Did not give the reason. Could be that senior officers even then were not confident HfL was up to the job. Or that the broken relations with HfL and officers meant they decided against it.
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BusLanes
Pedestrian
Does anyone have any strong thoughts on the extension of controlled parking to the rest of the borough?
Not owning a car and already living in a cpz it doesn't really bother me much but having been to some public meetings back in the day I can see it will bother a lot of people. I guess this time there's already a lot of organised / outrage about LTNs so perhaps they'll cross fertilize
Not owning a car and already living in a cpz it doesn't really bother me much but having been to some public meetings back in the day I can see it will bother a lot of people. I guess this time there's already a lot of organised / outrage about LTNs so perhaps they'll cross fertilize
sparkybird
ask the bird...
Social media seems to be rather quiet on this following the announcement. I think it's a good thing. I don't see why drivers get to store their cars for free in public space but a bike hangar costs £42 a year for just 1 bike.
colacubes
Mr Hot Cookie
Car owner who lives in a non CPZ currently. I’m very happy with them putting them in. It’s chaos here in the morning with both school run and commuters driving in, parking and getting on train at West Norwood. It shouldn’t be a right to park for free.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I do not have to much of a problem. As a non car owning cyclist/ user of public transport in my CPZ I have right to pay for resident parking permits. Which I have to buy in packs of five- twenty five pounds.
If I got a car I have a right to pay for residents permit. One of my more hardline acquaintances reckons this right should be withdrawn. As new builds dont have the right I do as resident to parking permit. how that is going to work I dont know. Walk large items? Its where I part company with Greens.
I have used two permits. One for friend picking up stuff I had stored for him in my flat. And a Council Heating engineer who put new boiler in my flat. Felt sorry for him so gave him one of my permits so he could park directly outside my house without the Council Stazi giving him a ticket. And they are up and down my street looking for hard pressed workers to fine all day. Sorry I meant "Council Enforcement Officers"
CPZ are imo about Lambeth Council seeing opportunity to make money out of hard pressed residents so they can pay there Cllrs in Cabinet wacking big allowances. And stuff the little person as this is "green"
I can afford to pay right on Lambeth to buy five tickets. Instead of paying for one at a time.
So I think if Lambeth if going to do this. Then residents should get five free permits a year. Pay for above that. Also should be able to pay for one at at time. Its a money making wheeze to make resident pay for block of five. Especially as its now all online. Not paper. Lambeth now have fifteen pounds sitting in their bank account I paid them months ago for privilege of parking I may or may not use in next year. Its clever way to make money.
There are plenty of people in my area who will not go be able to go through the hoops to get parking permits or be able to afford five at a time.
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sparkybird
ask the bird...
You can buy them online. I'm not sure if this means you can just buy one at a time as you need them. It's not clear on the website
Visitor parking vouchers
Buy daily visitor parking vouchers if you live in a Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ).
www.lambeth.gov.uk
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
You can buy them online. I'm not sure if this means you can just buy one at a time as you need them. It's not clear on the website
Visitors can also pay by phone using an app, if it's only a short visit this can be more economical than wasting a whole day permit, although this might not mean they can park right outside your home.Visitor parking vouchers
Buy daily visitor parking vouchers if you live in a Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ).
You have to buy them in blocks of five. And you can only get them if you can prove you live in a particular cpz zone. The tickets only cover your zone.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
I agree very much with your point on parking for essential "trade" visitors (could also apply to distant relatives from Northumberland by the way).
Personally I have enough problems summoning up the psychic energy to get non-fitting clothes changed at Primark - never mind Lambeth's internet psychodrama to get parking tickets to fix my gutter 4 floors up.
Fuck them I say - let them do it when I'm dead.
GarveyLives
Well-Known Member
The latest:
"[Lambeth] council has been ordered to pay a domestic violence victim £1,300 after it delayed rehousing her even though she was at risk of more abuse ..."
Domestic abuse victim wins £1.3k from Lambeth council over housing failures
"[Lambeth] council has been ordered to pay a domestic violence victim £1,300 after it delayed rehousing her even though she was at risk of more abuse ..."
Domestic abuse victim wins £1.3k from Lambeth council over housing failures
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
This recent Brixton Buzz article shows the director of the Earls Court Development Company to be one Tom Branton, formerly a director of Homes for Lambeth
Imagine my horror when, seeking confirmation a quick LinkedIn check produced the message "You both worked at London Borough of Lambeth"
More Lambeth directors leave the sinking Homes for Lambeth ship
There’s nothing like taking responsibility for your actions. It’s a shame that this can’t be said for the highly paid Lambeth council directors who oversaw the disaster that is Homes for Lambeth (H…
www.brixtonbuzz.com
Imagine my horror when, seeking confirmation a quick LinkedIn check produced the message "You both worked at London Borough of Lambeth"
editor
hiraethified
Rats/sinking ship etc
More Lambeth directors leave the sinking Homes for Lambeth ship
There’s nothing like taking responsibility for your actions. It’s a shame that this can’t be said for the highly paid Lambeth council directors who oversaw the disaster that is Homes for Lambeth (H…
www.brixtonbuzz.com
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Lambeth budgets for price rises of between 10-15% as it prepares to manage borough leisure centres back in-house
Taking services back in-house is something of a trend at Lambeth Town Hall for 2023. You wait an entire decade for the Third Way Nu Labour project to fail in Lambeth, and then BOOM! Suddenly there …
www.brixtonbuzz.com
I didn't know that Scrutiny were going to have this at next meeting.
Reading the report and under Consultation/ Co production it say none done.
It would have been helpful for users of leisure services to have had some for warning of this meeting. And been consulted on the report.
The report makes a glowing picture how how transition is going.
All remedial works will be done by April and all centres are DDA compliant.
Brixton Rec is not DDA compliant. The disabled access was the lift in Popes Road car park with the walkway to Rec. When the Council decided to demolish this they did not replace it with new lift. The ramp is not compliant.
The heating in changing rooms has not worked for years. No sign it will be remedied by April.
The escalator from reception to changing room level was turned off over year ago as it kept on breaking down. Turning it off was seen as better option. It needs replacement. No sign this will be done by April.
The other lifts broke down recently. And have not been working for several weeks.
Council appear to be trying to put blame for lifts / escalators on GLL/Better.
Which imo is unfair. These lifts are very old now so no surprise they need complete over haul
Secondly if Better/ GLL were not doing proper maintenance over years why did the Council not take this issue up before?
So the report is misleading.
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
Anyone know what’s going on at the Clapham Park Estate, is there a major redevelopment?
I remember seeing a load of building works last time I was there. Then I saw something earlier about a housing association cutting down a bunch of trees, locals up in arms, protest this Saturday…
I remember seeing a load of building works last time I was there. Then I saw something earlier about a housing association cutting down a bunch of trees, locals up in arms, protest this Saturday…
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
It has been going on for nearly fiften years and willl continue until 2035!
It feels like there have now been half a dozen iterations of the masterplan since Metropolitan HA took over from Clapham Park Homes.
Masterplan - Clapham Park | Metropolitan Housing
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
Just seen the flyer for the "Save Our Roots" protest tomorrow 12noon-2pm Sat 28 January at Clapham Park.
(The QR code takes you to Google map for the meeting point 35 Poynders Road SW4 8PN)
(The QR code takes you to Google map for the meeting point 35 Poynders Road SW4 8PN)
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editor
hiraethified
Good to see the Lib Dems providing some opposition (of sorts)
www.brixtonbuzz.com
www.brixtonbuzz.com
Thousands living in council homes with damp and mould, Lambeth Council admit
An increasingly active Lambeth Lib Dems have told Brixton Buzz that there are thousands of Lambeth residents living in council homes with damp and mould hazards, according to Lambeth Council’…
www.brixtonbuzz.com
“Not even sorry” – Lambeth Councillors reject public apology to residents over housing bungles
Lambeth Liberal Democrats say that Labour Councillors have refused to apologise to estate residents over bungled regeneration projects and for the ‘shocking waste’ of £30m in taxpayers’ cash.…
www.brixtonbuzz.com
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Anyone heard fron Lambeth's preferred partner for Brixton Rec Quarter?
I heard a rumourette that consultations are ahoy for 49 Brixton Station Road and 6 Canterbruy Crescent
londonsquare.co.uk
The properties on offer on their website vary from a paltry £385,000 for a 1 bed on the 10th floor in Croydon to £2 million for a prestige flat in Bermondsey or Nine Elms.
Where will Brixton fit in the equation?
I heard a rumourette that consultations are ahoy for 49 Brixton Station Road and 6 Canterbruy Crescent
Development partner agreed for Growing Brixton Rec Quarter
Your default description here
londonsquare.co.uk
The properties on offer on their website vary from a paltry £385,000 for a 1 bed on the 10th floor in Croydon to £2 million for a prestige flat in Bermondsey or Nine Elms.
Where will Brixton fit in the equation?
BusLanes
Pedestrian
Good to see the Lib Dems providing some opposition (of sorts)
Thousands living in council homes with damp and mould, Lambeth Council admit
An increasingly active Lambeth Lib Dems have told Brixton Buzz that there are thousands of Lambeth residents living in council homes with damp and mould hazards, according to Lambeth Council’…
“Not even sorry” – Lambeth Councillors reject public apology to residents over housing bungles
Lambeth Liberal Democrats say that Labour Councillors have refused to apologise to estate residents over bungled regeneration projects and for the ‘shocking waste’ of £30m in taxpayers’ cash.…
They've done something with parking fines too, which made the BBC the other day and then Mail today.
Goes to show the best way to get in the papers is to do something about parking or traffic fines.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Update from Housing Ombudsman on Lambeth poor repairs service:
www.housing-ombudsman.org.uk
Council say they are working with the Ombudsman. What comes across in this update is poor record keeping by Lambeth. In in ability of Lambeth to clearly prove to Ombudsman what they are doing.
Lambeth say these cases are a minority of the overall repairs they do each year. Lambeth I feel don't really get it when criticised.
This and the Kerslake report don't show this is a Cooperative Council.
Severe maladministration findings for Lambeth Council | HOS
Ombudsman calls for ‘radical improvements’ following five severe maladministration findings for Lambeth Council. Read more.
www.housing-ombudsman.org.uk
Council say they are working with the Ombudsman. What comes across in this update is poor record keeping by Lambeth. In in ability of Lambeth to clearly prove to Ombudsman what they are doing.
Lambeth say these cases are a minority of the overall repairs they do each year. Lambeth I feel don't really get it when criticised.
This and the Kerslake report don't show this is a Cooperative Council.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
A close friend is dealing with the ombudsman on housing repair issues. They have a bizarre situation in that Lambeth registered a stage 1 complaint in relation to agreed repairs not being carried out. This complaint went nowhere so they have tried to escalate to stage 2 only Lambeth won't acknowledge the escalation. She took it to the ombudsman but they will only deal with it once stage 2 is complete, which obviously requires Lambeth to start it in the first place.Update from Housing Ombudsman on Lambeth poor repairs service:
Severe maladministration findings for Lambeth Council | HOS
Ombudsman calls for ‘radical improvements’ following five severe maladministration findings for Lambeth Council. Read more.
Council say they are working with the Ombudsman. What comes across in this update is poor record keeping by Lambeth. In in ability of Lambeth to clearly prove to Ombudsman what they are doing.
Lambeth say these cases are a minority of the overall repairs they do each year. Lambeth I feel don't really get it when criticised.
This and the Kerslake report don't show this is a Cooperative Council.
A year down the line the ombudsman has now said she must write again to Lambeth telling them that the ombudsman has agreed to consider her complaint if they don't respond in eight weeks. She's done this and no reply from Lambeth. It's a black hole.
Three councillors have not replied once.
Tricky Skills
Well-Known Member
Buzzed: Lambeth Council found guilty of 'severe maladministration' by the Housing Ombudsman and ordered to apologise and compensate residents Lambeth Council found guilty of ‘severe maladministration’ by the Housing Ombudsman and ordered to apologise and compensate residents
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I had a surveyor around for the Stock condition survey.
There were a couple of defects from the Decent homes standard work I pointed out.
Most of the Decent homes standard work was ok. A couple of holes in brickwork they didn't fill in and some defective outside painting.
This has already been covered in previous survey over a year ago. And I had sent email and photos within the snagging/ defects period.
Nothing happened.
The recent surveyor said I should keep on at the Council about it.
Makes me wonder what happens to these surveyor reports. That's the point of them. I give access , surveyor writes report and in theory Council act on it's advice.
I've got a new boiler as when I got onto my Cllrs the Council fell over themselves to have new one installed. I actually got a better one than my neighbour.
It should not be that one has to know how to complain. When to be pushy.
There were a couple of defects from the Decent homes standard work I pointed out.
Most of the Decent homes standard work was ok. A couple of holes in brickwork they didn't fill in and some defective outside painting.
This has already been covered in previous survey over a year ago. And I had sent email and photos within the snagging/ defects period.
Nothing happened.
The recent surveyor said I should keep on at the Council about it.
Makes me wonder what happens to these surveyor reports. That's the point of them. I give access , surveyor writes report and in theory Council act on it's advice.
I've got a new boiler as when I got onto my Cllrs the Council fell over themselves to have new one installed. I actually got a better one than my neighbour.
It should not be that one has to know how to complain. When to be pushy.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
From the Ombudsman press release. So these are new maladministration findings after a previous report by Ombudsman.
This is a theme in how independent expert outsiders see Lambeth. This also came up in how Kerslake saw Lambeth's "consultation" with residents on estates.
Tricky Skills
Well-Known Member
BusLanes
Pedestrian
I was on holiday overseas last year and one of the things that struck me was every town or village had a public toilet. Usually in good nick and modern.
To be clear these were not London sized places but it was a bit crazy to think I didn't need to find a pub or cafe to mooch off or have to buy something first.
Tricky Skills
Well-Known Member
Bookies use to be good, but even they now need an authorisation code to gain entry to some. A 10p bet to spend a penny often works. You sometimes even win once you have done the business.
