I like and admire Danny, but it was very clear that he said something deliberately provocative to make his point.
Julie Burchill forced to apologise for twitter comments , and pay out a fat wedge .
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mauvais
on reddit or something
She only learnt to ride a bike last year, I saw something about it after someone (some commentator I think) gave her grief for that too.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
On urban too
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You say that like it's a bad thing
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
I think it's entirely possible to think on the one hand that Burchil acted like a bullying cunt, while on the other also being a massive atheist who can talk about religions and their writings being damaging and ridiculous. There is a difference.
Humberto
Relax
The 'Jesus' one was in my home, I was sitting in a chair and he was just there in front of me for a bit. The other two I mentioned were in dreams. One told me about a problem I had, shook their hand and asked their name. Anyway.
andysays
Love and solidarity
If this thread is about anything, it's about the difference between being deliberately provocative to make a point, and being deliberately and cuntishly offensive to attack a individual or group.
danny la rouge has certainly done the former, which is OK; Burchill has done the latter, which is not OK.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
One of my former flatmate's colleagues was tripping once and found god hidden away in a breadbin
Danny's point was obviously a crude provocation, but I don't think it's anything like equivalent to Burchill's racist attacks on Sarkar.
Kenan Malik makes the point that what's often called an offence to a community is actually a debate within a community, and I think that's something that has some relevance here. While we may choose to be atheists in the UK, the christian church still exercises a huge amount of political and social control and influence over the communities we live in. The christian church is in our schools, in our legislative chambers, on our national broadcaster. In Northern Ireland, women are unable to freely access abortions because of the enduring influence of the church.
Criticisms of and provocations against christianity by people living in the UK - and anywhere the church still exercises political and social control - are not lobbing bricks at an oppressed minority, they are attacks against a powerful institution. There would be no real need to illustrate the deep misogyny apparent in christian myths if those myths weren't taught to our children as real things, if those myths weren't used to deny women medical care, if those myths weren't used to call gay relationships 'sinful', etc etc. It's the political power that is being attacked, not anyone's deeply held faith.
Kenan Malik makes the point that what's often called an offence to a community is actually a debate within a community, and I think that's something that has some relevance here. While we may choose to be atheists in the UK, the christian church still exercises a huge amount of political and social control and influence over the communities we live in. The christian church is in our schools, in our legislative chambers, on our national broadcaster. In Northern Ireland, women are unable to freely access abortions because of the enduring influence of the church.
Criticisms of and provocations against christianity by people living in the UK - and anywhere the church still exercises political and social control - are not lobbing bricks at an oppressed minority, they are attacks against a powerful institution. There would be no real need to illustrate the deep misogyny apparent in christian myths if those myths weren't taught to our children as real things, if those myths weren't used to deny women medical care, if those myths weren't used to call gay relationships 'sinful', etc etc. It's the political power that is being attacked, not anyone's deeply held faith.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Fair enough. His son is the bread of life, after all.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
He's everywhere, man.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
But not it seems equally dispersed
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Hmmm. Not sure about this. A lot of the resulting mythology around the many rapes suggests quite strongly that this couldn't/shouldn't have been the case. When Leda was shagged by Zeus's swan for example, she was married. This theory therefore makes her adulterous. Madusa was punished by Athena for being raped by Poseidon; perhaps a stronger feminist angle there than her having chosen to seduce him, etc, etc.
bimble
floofy
Agree with all of that but at the same time doesn't it leave you in a place where you can criticise 'your own' religion as much as you like (or the one dominant where you happen to live) but the irrational & oppressive ideas of The Other, the exotic or oppressed or just mostly elsewhere, must be treated with respect, or passed over in silence, which idea i think has its own issues.
Oh, I don't think the irrational and oppressive ideas of religions dominant elsewhere must be treated with respect at all - but that's not what Burchill was doing. She wasn't attacking Islam, she was attacking a person.
I think that's underplaying what Burchill has done. It was an obsessive campaign against an individual and really weird sexual one at that.
ska invita
back on the other side
Yes there are power imbalances here , and thats why a degree of sensitivity in regards the feelings of a minority and oppressed muslim population is required. But ultimately it shouldnt stop anyone continuing to try and dismantle orthodox religions. Rule 1: try not shouting Mo Was a Paedo at anyone
bimble
floofy
Yep of course, no excuses or rationalisations at all for what she did.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
Google for “feminist Madusa myth”
Google for “feminist Leda and the Swan”
Or just google for “feminist Greek myth” or any other myth system you can think of.
Or “feminist retelling of myth” or “feminist revisionist mythology” or invent your own search term
I thought of it all by myself as a baby feminist, and it was exciting for me, but I’m by no means the only person to have thought of it. It’s been part of feminist discourse for some time now.
Angela Carter made a living doing the same with fairy stories.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Oh I don't doubt for a moment that such theories exist. Just pointing out that they're flawed.
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
bimble
floofy
This is one helluva hot take you got there, its better to be raped than to be an adultress ok.
ska invita
back on the other side
I dont think theyre theories as much as "feminist literary interventions" for want of a better word IYSWIM
These events didnt happen, the original texts are what they are, but by retelling and reframing it it brings up interesting issues
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Islam is not a minority religion everywhere in the world. In some parts it is definitely the majority, or only, religion. When it is, it can be very oppressive for non-Muslims and indeed for those Muslims who are deemed apostates or heretics. It shouldn't be left off the hook just because Islam is a minority religion here in Britain. At the same time I am not advocating senselessly attacking Muslim individuals or communities.
Anyway, and I could be wrong here, I don't think that Muslim communities are particularly oppressed here because of their religion but because of their skin colour or national origins. If I am wrong, please enlighten me how someone adhering to Islam is more oppressed than an atheist like myself.
bimble
floofy
srsly ? maybe go out and about wearing a burqua and see if people treat you just the same.
Ever been searched at an airport?
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Fair point. I did say I might be wrong. I hadn't thought that through from a female perspective. Though not all Muslim women wear burquas of course, or indeed feel the need to cover their hair.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
We live in a world in which people are prosecuted (persecuted) and even killed for things called 'blasphemy' and 'apostasy'. In such a world, it is not punching down to attack the basic tenets of the religions in whose name these actions are taken. If you were brought up in that religion, you of course have more knowledge and a more direct emotional involvement, but you don't just abandon the victims of this shit because their oppressors are a different group from your oppressors. That's just basic solidarity.
In the context of this thread, it is of course unfortunate that, in the hands of hateful, stupid people like Burchill, such attacks are made in racist, bullying ways. Idiots like Burchill are just as damaging in their way as the structures they attack because all attacks end up getting lumped in with the attacks of the idiots, and people are afraid to make any attacks at all on any of it.
In the context of this thread, it is of course unfortunate that, in the hands of hateful, stupid people like Burchill, such attacks are made in racist, bullying ways. Idiots like Burchill are just as damaging in their way as the structures they attack because all attacks end up getting lumped in with the attacks of the idiots, and people are afraid to make any attacks at all on any of it.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Edie was personally offended by what I said. I do regret that because I like Edie and I could have made the point without upsetting her. I’ve apologised to her because I caused the upset.
That is a matter of interpersonal relations. It stands apart from any other discussion.
That is a matter of interpersonal relations. It stands apart from any other discussion.
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